How Do Memes and Archetypes Differ? Dawkins vs Peterson, Moderated by Alex O’Connor | EP 491

TL;DR

Memes spread through imitation, whereas archetypes are foundational patterns built into human psychology, according to the distinction explored by Richard Dawkins and Jordan Peterson. Peterson argues that memes catch on through emotional resonance and may express deeper instincts, while Dawkins accepts that archetypes could help explain why some memes spread. Their exchange connects culture, biology, myth, and empirical truth. Read on to understand where their views overlap and diverge.

Transcript

I had the opportunity today to engage in a long awaited discussion Dr Richard Dawkins and Alex o coner and we took the opportunity to explore things we agree about and things we disagree about in a manner that I think was very productive join us for that you said that you were a cultural Christian but what did you mean by that virtually nothing Dr ... Read More

Key Insights

• Memes are cultural elements that spread by imitation and can be likened to viruses of the mind.
• Archetypes are universal symbols inherent in humans, not spread by imitation but embedded in our psychology.
• Dawkins emphasizes the importance of scientific facts over symbolic interpretations.
• Peterson argues that mythological narratives hold deep psychological and cultural significance.
• Both speakers explore the idea that certain cultural narratives could evolve similarly to biological traits.
• The concept of the Baldwin effect is discussed as a potential mechanism for how cultural ideas might influence genetic evolution.
• Peterson suggests that religious and mythological stories encode valuable lessons about human behavior and societal organization.
• Dawkins remains skeptical of religious narratives, focusing on empirical evidence and scientific inquiry.

Questions & Answers

Q: What is the difference between a meme and an archetype?

Dawkins defines a meme as something that spreads through imitation, like a virus of the mind. He describes an archetype as something all humans possess by virtue of being human, rather than something transmitted through a population.

Q: Why does Dawkins call a meme a “virus of the mind”?

He uses the phrase to emphasize that a meme spreads because it is capable of spreading and being imitated. His example is the backward baseball hat, which becomes fashionable and moves through a population without being an innate archetype.

Q: How does Peterson connect memes with archetypes?

Peterson argues that an idea catches on because it has emotional resonance and attracts people positively or negatively. As a meme increasingly expresses underlying biological motivations or instincts, he says it becomes more archetypal.

Q: Can archetypes explain why certain memes spread?

Dawkins says it is plausible that alignment with an archetype could be one reason a meme spreads, assuming archetypes exist. He still maintains that memes and archetypes are different because memes circulate through imitation, while archetypes are foundational.

Q: How does Peterson define an archetype in relation to instinct?

Peterson describes an archetype as the manifestation of an instinct in image and behavior. At the deepest level lies a motivational or emotional drive, while imagination, behavior, and culture provide more constructed expressions of it.

Q: Do archetypes spread through cultures like memes?

The discussion presents archetypes as more foundational than memes, so they do not simply arise and disappear within individual generations. Peterson says their deepest structure would change no faster than the species itself, although their cultural expressions can be more temporary.

Q: Why is the backward baseball hat discussed?

Dawkins uses it as an example of a meme that became fashionable and spread through a population. Peterson treats it as a relatively shallow cultural expression that still caught people’s interest for a reason and therefore retains some connection to biology.

Q: How do Dawkins and Peterson differ on myth and factual truth?

Dawkins says he prioritizes fact, cares about truth value, and sees no truth value in claims such as the Virgin birth and resurrection. Peterson prioritizes myth and argues that symbolic images and evolved texts can reflect a deeper order, while suggesting that the pathways of myth and fact ultimately need to unify.

Summary & Key Takeaways

• Memes are described by Dawkins as cultural viruses that spread by imitation, while archetypes, as defined by Peterson, are innate symbols within humans. The discussion explores how these concepts intersect and influence culture and religion, highlighting their implications on human behavior and societal norms.

• Dawkins and Peterson engage in a dialogue that contrasts scientific facts with mythological narratives. Dawkins prioritizes empirical evidence and scientific inquiry, while Peterson emphasizes the psychological and cultural significance of religious and mythological stories.

• The conversation delves into the Baldwin effect, suggesting that cultural ideas might influence genetic evolution. Peterson argues that narratives like the story of the bronze serpent and the resurrection encode lessons about human behavior, while Dawkins remains focused on the importance of empirical evidence.