Joe Rogan Experience #1428 - Brian Greene

TL;DR

Overall entropy must increase, but the universe still forms pockets of order like stars, which raise the surrounding entropy as they shine. Stars are responsible for all life, since supernovas forge the ingredients for carbon-based biology. Humans and everything else are simply bags of particles governed by the same physical laws.

Transcript

three-two-one Brian Greene ladies and gentlemen how are you sir good thank you how are you doing this man my pleasure enjoyed your work for many many many years so I really appreciate you coming in well thank you I appreciate that like I was telling you I just started your new book and how's it going it's going well it's hasn't confusing [ __ ] out... Read More

Key Insights

• Entropy overall must go up, yet local pockets of order can still form; stars are orderly bright objects that increase entropy in their surroundings so the net entropy rises even as structure appears.
• Stars are responsible for all life, because a star must explode in a supernova to create the ingredients for carbon-based biology; without that stellar death there would be no biological carbon-based life.
• Without stars and the force of gravity, particles of the universe would just disperse, the universe would grow bigger and colder, and no structure would exist at all.
• Humans are ultimately bags of particles governed by physical law, sharing the same fundamental ingredients and laws as inanimate matter, which Greene finds spectacular rather than diminishing.
• Awareness of our own mortality is the vital distinguishing feature of the species, a driving factor in what humans do, a thesis developed by Otto Rank and by Ernest Becker in Denial of Death.
• Every structure in the universe will eventually disintegrate, including protons, whose quantum processes are expected to make them decay and fall apart into constituent particles in the far future.
• Greene's Empire State Building metaphor assigns each floor a duration ten times the previous; the Big Bang to today sits at the 10th floor, 10 to the 10 years, and protons decay around the 38th floor.
• Human intuition evolved only for everyday Newtonian scales, never under evolutionary pressure to grasp quantum mechanics or cosmic time, because ancestors who pondered electrons instead of survival got eaten.

Questions & Answers

Q: How does entropy allow life to form if it drives toward disorder?

Entropy gets a bad rap as pure disintegration, decay, and disorder, and overall entropy must go up. But that does not mean there cannot be little pockets of order forming along the way. Stars are pockets of order that naturally form, yet as they form they increase the entropy in their surroundings, so the net entropy still rises even though a beautiful orderly bright object appears in the sky.

Q: Why are stars responsible for all life in the universe?

Stars are literally responsible for all the life. When a star supernovas, it creates the actual ingredients for life, and you cannot have biological carbon-based life if it is not for a star exploding. Carl Sagan poetically said we are made of star stuff, but Greene notes we are also made of nuclear refuse, the death throes of a star that rain down on planets. On at least one such planet that stuff comes together and yields life, making it a cycle.

Q: What would the universe be like without stars?

Without stars, the particles of the universe would just disperse. The universe would get bigger and bigger, colder and colder, and that would be it. There would not be any structure in the universe if it were not for the force of gravity. Stars themselves are very strange: our fairly small star is a million times larger than Earth, will burn for billions of years, and just hovers there creating all the life. Their existence is what makes the universe an interesting place.

Q: What is the Empire State Building metaphor for cosmic time?

Greene imagines every floor of the Empire State Building representing a duration ten times that of the previous floor. The ground floor is one year, the first floor 10 years, the second floor 100 years, and so on exponentially. Everything from the Big Bang until today puts you at about the 10th floor, 10 to the 10 years, or 10 billion years. The metaphor gives a relative feel for when things of interest happen across scales the mind cannot naturally hold.

Q: When will protons decay and what happens to matter?

Greene says, at the speculative end of theoretical ideas, protons will decay roughly by the 38th floor, meaning 10 to the 38 years into the future. At that point there is no complex matter around at all, as protons fall apart into their constituent particles. By the 14th floor most stars will have used up their nuclear fuel and become dark embers, and by the 38th floor any remaining stars dissipate into their ingredients, leaving no life, mind, or complex structures.

Q: Why does Greene say humans are just bags of particles?

Greene argues that although we can think, reflect, and have emotions, ultimately everyone is just bags of particles governed by physical law. There is a continuity between the inanimate stuff of the world, the inanimate stuff of the heavens, and us, all coming from the same fundamental ingredients and laws. Rather than finding this diminishing, Greene sees it as spectacular that collections of particles can do what we do, so meaning does not require being endowed with a special quality by an external entity.

Q: Why is awareness of death considered unique to humans?

Greene calls awareness of our own mortality the vital distinguishing feature of our species. We can reflect on the past, think about the future, and recognize we will not be here for some period of time. This idea is a powerful motivating influence explored through the ages: Otto Rank, an early disciple of Freud who broke with him, developed the thesis that awareness of mortality drives what we do, and Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, which won a Pulitzer Prize in the 70s, distilled this thinking.

Q: Why can't humans intuitively understand quantum mechanics or cosmic time?

Humans are good at understanding days, weeks, months, and years, and everyday Newtonian phenomena like catching a thrown bottle without calculation. But we have no basis for understanding the universe over quantum scales or fantastically long durations we have never experienced. We were born as big creatures relative to quantum scales, so our intuition was never under evolutionary pressure to grasp how electrons behave. Greene jokes that ancestors on the African savanna who pondered electrons got eaten, so their genes did not propagate.

Summary

In this video, Brian Greene discusses various topics related to the beginning of the universe, entropy, the role of stars in the formation of life, and the ultimate fate of the universe. He also touches on the significance of our awareness of our own mortality and the quest for immortality through our work and contributions.

Questions & Answers

Q: What is the backdrop to Greene's book?

The backdrop to Greene's book is the entire narrative of the beginning of time, the beginning of the universe, and the end. He aims to give readers a comprehensive understanding of how everything started, how consciousness emerged, the existence of free will, and what the future holds for us and the universe as time passes.

Q: How does Greene explain entropy?

Greene explains that while entropy is often associated with disorder and decay, the reality of the situation is more nuanced. While overall entropy tends to increase, there can still be pockets of order that form along the way. For example, stars are pockets of order that naturally form, but their formation also increases the entropy in their surroundings. Without stars, the universe would lack structure.

Q: Why is the existence of stars considered strange?

Stars themselves are considered strange because they are fairly large and have a significant impact on the universe. Our Sun, for example, is a million times larger than Earth and will burn for billions of years. Stars not only create the conditions for life to exist but also provide the necessary ingredients for life through supernovas.

Q: How does Greene view the continuity between humans and the rest of the universe?

Greene emphasizes the continuity between humans and the rest of the universe. He explains that while humans possess unique qualities such as consciousness, emotions, and the ability to reflect, ultimately, humans are made up of the same fundamental particles as everything else in the universe. He finds it remarkable that collections of particles can give rise to consciousness and other complex behaviors.

Q: How does Greene address the fear of death and the insignificance of finite life?

Greene acknowledges that our awareness of our own mortality is a fundamental aspect of being human. He explains that this awareness has been explored throughout history and is a driving force behind human actions and motivations. He refers to the work of psychologists like Otto Rank and Ernest Becker who have delved into the relationship between mortality and human behavior. Greene finds it important to find meaning and significance in our existence, even in the face of death.

Q: How does Greene explain the vast timescales involved in the universe's lifespan?

Greene uses a metaphor involving the Empire State Building to convey the vast timescales involved in the universe's lifespan. Each floor of the building represents a duration ten times longer than the previous floor. We are currently at the 10th floor, which represents approximately 10 billion years since the Big Bang. According to our current understanding, protons will decay around the 38th floor, which represents around 10 to the power of 38 years into the future.

Q: What does Greene speculate will happen after protons cease to exist?

Greene speculates that without protons and complex structures, all complex matter and life will fall apart. Stars will have used up their nuclear fuel, and any remaining stars will dissipate into their constituent particles. This implies that there will be no complex astronomical structures or life beyond a certain point in the future.

Q: How does Greene explain the concept of time and space?

Greene discusses how our intuition for understanding time and space is limited by our human scale. He compares our understanding of time to our understanding of temperature. Temperature emerges from the motion of particles, and our intuition aligns with everyday experiences of hot and cold. Similarly, our intuition for space is based on everyday experiences and is limited to the scale of larger objects. Understanding quantum mechanics and the true nature of time and space requires a shift in intuition.

Q: Can future generations understand concepts like quantum mechanics better than current ones?

Greene speculates that future generations might have a better intuition for understanding concepts like quantum mechanics due to advances in technology. As technologies like virtual reality and augmented reality improve, it might be possible to create virtual experiences that allow for a deeper understanding of quantum realities. However, he notes that it is uncertain whether our species will last long enough to have such an impact on our intuition.

Q: How does Greene emphasize the collective effort in scientific progress?

Greene underscores the value of collective effort in scientific progress. He states that while individual scientists may be remembered, the true value lies in the collective body of scientific knowledge that continues to grow and allow us to understand and manipulate the natural world. It is not about personalities, but rather about the insights and discoveries that further our understanding.

Q: Do charismatic personalities like Greene, Neil deGrasse Tyson, and Richard Feynman have an impact on the interest in science?

Greene acknowledges that personalities like his and others play a significant role in generating interest in science. He believes that their charisma and ability to communicate complex ideas attract more people to the subject and make it more intriguing. These individuals help cultivate interest in science outside of the traditional educational system, where science education can often become focused on assessment and examinations, rather than fostering intrinsic interest.

Takeaways

Brian Greene's discussion covers a wide range of topics related to the beginning of the universe, consciousness, the role of stars in the formation of life, and the ultimate fate of the universe. He emphasizes the continuity between humans and the rest of the universe, debunking the notion of intrinsic specialness. Greene explores the fear of death and the quest for immortality through our work and the impact we can have on knowledge and understanding. He also delves into the vast timescales involved in the universe's lifespan and speculates on the concept of time itself. Additionally, Greene touches on the significance of collective scientific progress and the role of charismatic personalities in generating interest in science. Overall, the discussion leaves us with a sense of wonder and appreciation for the interconnectedness and complexity of the universe.

Summary & Key Takeaways

• Brian Greene's new book Until the End of Time, released today, traces the universe from the Big Bang to the far future, covering how stars and life arise, how consciousness and free will emerge, and how everything will eventually disintegrate over cosmic time.

• Entropy gets a bad rap as pure decay, but the reality is subtler: net entropy must rise, yet orderly pockets like stars still form. Stars increase surrounding entropy while making the universe interesting and, through supernovas, creating the ingredients for all life.

• Everything decays in the far future, including protons around the 38th floor of Greene's Empire State Building time metaphor. Awareness of mortality distinguishes humans, and Greene argues meaning comes from recognizing that particles governed by physical law can do miraculous things.