Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of GlaspTalk. Today, we are excited to have Noa Eshed. Noa is an award-winning growth marketer, and a podcaster, and Amazon best-selling author, and a strategic leader in the B2B tech industry. So, she is a co-founder and general manager of Bold Digital Architects, a renowned agency specializing in content marketing for B2B startups, and a co-host of the Real Life Superpowers podcast, ranked in the top 10% globally,

and where she interviews top performers from various industries and fields. So, Noa has collaborated with hundreds of startups and guided them through strategic growth and marketing innovation. Her passion for storytelling and strategic planning shines through her work, and which has earned awards like HubSpot Impact Award. So, today, we will dive into Noa's journey, expertise in growth marketing, and her insights into driving success in the ever-evolving tech

landscape. So, thank you for joining today, Noa. Thank you both. Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for this really kind introduction. Thank you. Yes. So, first of all, you are running a world-renowned agency, Bold Digital Architects, and we are really curious, what motivated you to study, and how has it evolved over the last 10 years? It's actually even more than 10 years, and it's a fairly unique story, I believe,

because I studied law. I went to the Hebrew University, and then I was in a law review, and then I went on to do this prestigious internship, and it just felt wrong. I really appreciated the people around me. They were clearly top performers and super smart, but for me, I couldn't find my passion in it. I also think I wasn't a very good intern, but I feel like I was looking around, and I was thinking, there has to be more to life,

to my life. I feel like I'm not finding myself in this type of lifestyle, and I want to do something else. So, I did take the bar exam, and luckily, I also passed, because I think I would always have that at the back of my head, that it would feel as if, you know, I didn't, I failed, so I left. So, it felt nice to have the certificate, and to be certified as a lawyer, and then make my choices. I even remember the Oasis song, free to do whatever I,

to be whatever I, playing in my head, once I checked that out of the way. And then, basically, what I did is, A, this was around the time where Facebook started doing commercial pages, even before there was even an ability to do paid media. So, I started promoting businesses throughout Israel. I was sort of pulling strings through my network, and getting the opportunity to learn this new landscape that is evolving, together with business

owners. So, I helped some businesses in Israel to establish a presence on social media, and it was fascinating, because it's a topic, it's like an industry evolving, and it was a lot of trial and error, which for me, was exciting. And I started doing that for a living, and at the same time, I also co-founded a national magazine for students, with a few co-founders. So, we were a little arrogant, and we thought that you could make money off print, in an era of digital,

but this was, so we lost a lot of money, but it was an immense business school, because we learned so much about everything to do with business, more or less. And we distributed this across campuses, all across Israel, and we got journalists on board, and all these big names that we could use to, you know, get people hooked on it. And we had advertisers, which is also a great business school, because you have to negotiate and sell this.

So, that was really something that was a great business school for me, and a school for content. I feel that's where I really learned content deeply. And then, after doing that, and losing money there, but learning again so much, like I don't regret it, I just also don't want to portray it as a huge success in, you know, the standard terms. Then I started getting really curious about everything to do with how content and adding value can help brands and companies

establish a presence. And I also stumbled into HubSpot and their blog, and they're doing a fantastic job. So, they're really educating an industry, or industries actually, how to grow through adding value, instead of interrupting and selling. And I loved that. So, I took the direction of seeing how I can help companies grow through that, and then the agency went through a lot of cycles. Like, it wasn't smooth sailing, and it also wasn't linear. So, basically, the path was

to really try and understand how to add value, and then through that course correct all the time. Still do, but for a few years now, my focus is on B2B tech startups. I see, yeah. But I'm curious, you know, why did you pick B2B and also startups, not B2C, like consumer application or not, like a social media platform? Yeah, that's a good question. And it also didn't start that way. Like, I did dabble with B2C, but I felt like there was something

more vague that required more out-of-the-box thinking. Not to say that in B2C it doesn't require that, because the creativity that is required in B2C marketing to be successful is immense. But to me, there was something appealing about trying to reverse engineer and understand a specific technology, and then understanding what's unique about it, how it applies to certain audiences, and how to sort of get a puzzle forming out of what's unique about the specific

technology. And I think, you know, I guess I like challenges, so I felt like those are ongoing challenges that I like to tackle. I see, yeah, thank you. So, yeah, maybe, so you are doing like, you know, B2B tech startup, like marketing, but so, yeah, if you have a client, a new client, so what do you start with at first? Yeah, what do you start with? So, how do you start with, like, you know, yeah. Right, right, right. So, of course, that's also a process that's evolving. I honestly feel like

anything that becomes, you know, an autopilot is very dangerous. You know, there's things that with experience you do faster, but I think being able to zoom out all the time and evaluate processes is super important, especially in a dynamic landscape. But having said that, there are, of course, the constants. So, basically, with a new client, what I and my team do is we really dig in deep and we really try to now understand what they do and what's unique

about them. And we ask for product demos and we ask to see all their collateral, if they have such, and we ask them to walk us through what they do. And then we try to question them in a way that perhaps makes them think about things differently, because sometimes founders are so hooked on the solution that they lose sight of what their target audience needs and also what their challenges are. So, a lot of the times it's about also really trying to figure out what, how does this answer

a need? I took this course in Harvard Business School online called Disruptive Strategy, which I truly recommend by Clayton Christensen, and he was talking about a concept called job to be done. And since I took that, that's a question I always ask, like, what job do you help get done? And I think being able to answer that really helps pave a road. I see, yeah, thank you. And so, yeah, I think you have a law background, right? So, yeah,

you studied law, so yeah, when you're in your school, and so now you are doing like, you know, B2B tech startup, like content marketing. But so, to stand out, like in B2B tech startup, so yeah, you need to focus on like, oh, this is a cutting edge technology, or this is a great technology. So, how do you evaluate those technologies and so make it stand out for clients? I think there's no one size fits all answer to that. I think it's sometimes not necessarily

the specific features. I think it's a broader picture. And a lot of the times it's about positioning the founders as domain experts, and in general, to be able to establish the specific company as such that the target audience will trust and choose to consider when they need that such solution. So, sometimes you're racing against companies that at the end of the day, you're offering pretty much the same, you know, it's like, everybody has competition. And, you

know, founders that tell me I don't have competitors, I worry, because at the end of the day, you're so you're helping a job get done, as we just discussed. And if you don't understand that somebody else is also somehow helping you get some helping get that job done, maybe better, maybe not, you know, maybe, maybe there are IBM contributors or on the Forbes tech council. They wrote for you these large publications.

Those are things that help establish trust. So it's not just a person saying, I'm good, but, you know, there's an ecosystem validating that. And that means a lot. And, of course, also case studies. It depends on the stage of the startup, but there are definitely ways to be able to show the world that this team and this product is trustworthy. I see. And you mentioned like, you know, how to build a trust. And I think credibility from the industry or fields matters.

But let's say, you know, that your client's competitors also publish to, okay, Forbes business council, you know, same credibility. And what eventually differentiates the trust? I'm just curious. It's a really good question. And I think it comes down to quality and nuances. So it's really about being able to have people connect with what you write and impressed with what you write. So there's the actual platform where you're at,

and there's what you have to say. And the more that people, the more your content can resonate, the better. But also at the end of the day, human beings sometimes aren't that complex creatures. So sometimes it's about making a good impression. And then, yes, perhaps it's going to be exactly the same as the competitor. But then there are other components because there's the sales team and there's the touch points and there's the frequency

and there's how much that persona saw. And there's what do you do offline? Are you at events? Do people recognize you because they saw you on Forbes and now they're meeting this really great salesperson who is about adding value and not shoving a solution that you don't need in your face. So, you know, a startup success goes beyond marketing. I see. And so this may be a dumb question, but, you know, let's say your client,

you talk to your client, I talk to your client, let's say, then you figure out, oh, this company doesn't have anything shines. But would you still work with them? I mean, let's say, you know, B2B takes up, they should have something like something, maybe technology, as you mentioned, credibility is something, but if they don't have anything, would you still work with them? Or should they have something shines, at least as your client?

I'm just curious, because if they have something shines, it's easier to work with. I don't think that's a dumb question at all. I think what I ask myself is, can we find the spark? Can we create the spark? Is there some form of X factor? Is there maybe a team member that we're not aware of, that we can help become the star and to be the front here? Is there maybe something, are there maybe not sparking, you know, shining, because they're so solution oriented

and technically oriented, that they're not aware of how to turn this into magic. At the end of the day, I think, you know, the small details can make all the difference. So, maybe I'm very optimistic, but I'm a believer that, you know, potential is very high when there's good intent and in general, good people who are doing something interesting and smart. So, it's possible to amplify potential. And I guess to your question, you know, if it's absolutely,

I'll tell you this, maybe that answers your question from a different angle. Yeah, there are startups that I wouldn't work with because I don't see it. I don't see the potential. Of course, if they're doing something that I don't feel is ethical, and I'm not talking about ethical like in criminal, just in a sense of there are more legit ways to make money, even if not, you know, I don't know, some form of ad tech companies

that I wouldn't be comfortable with the arbitrage or stuff like that. Like, I wouldn't work with any company, but I do try to see the good in people and in their efforts. I see. Yeah, that's a really interesting answer. Thank you. And also, I was, you know, as I asked, but still I was curious, you know, why do you choose to work with startups? Because, you know, as a company-wise, if you work with large enterprise and you can make much money,

I'm just, you know, curious because startup usually don't have money, don't have budget. But why do you still choose startup? Because you love working with startup? Yeah. Yeah, but I'll start from the end. Like, money-wise, I do not work with startups who don't yet have any form of investment. So there has to be a cost of entry for working together. So that's a non-issue because startups at some stage, when they lift off the ground and have investors in the picture,

then, of course, they don't have the budgets for media and stuff that an enterprise would, but that's not a problem. And then I just like how there's magic in creating something where there wasn't anything before. So I'm passionate about that. I like seeing growth, and I think you get more immediate feedback in organizations that are agile because they have to be. And for me, you know, even circling back to my law internship,

I like things to be agile, in a sense, and without multiple decision-makers having to meet up and decide things and think about things. It's just more simple, and you make more of an impact, I feel, working with a startup. I see. Yeah, I love the answer, yeah. And I'm curious, because you have over 10 years' experience working with B2B tech startup, and you have seen many tech cycles, and now AI is really trending, you know.

People say, oh, we are AI-powered, AI-native, et cetera, X, Y, Z, but how does AI impact on the B2B tech scene, generally? That's really interesting. I think it doesn't impact as much as people assume. I think if I compare it in a strange comparison to COVID, I think it enhances processes that were bound to happen anyway. So I think it's amplifying efficiency, and I think it's creating solutions. In that sense, I think from the lens of creating solutions,

I think it's doing wonders, because, you know, it's not exponential, but it's nearing exponential advancements. And I think in that respect, it goes way beyond B2B tech. It affects all of us. It's also troubling, because I don't know where it's going to head, and, you know, there's a race to the bottom here that is evidently happening in the background. But with respect to day-to-day B2B work, it's either giving birth to new ideas and new initiatives

that are interesting and efficient, of course, with such that are not, but that happens always with any innovation. And then it also really, really helps efficiency. I see. Yeah, that makes sense. Yes. And also, could you... I don't know if you can, but could you share some successful use cases? I mean, client work, or how to say, I don't know how to say, like a portfolio and why it was successful. And also, if you can share, you know,

the company you work to, but it didn't go well, if they are a company. But if you succeed 100%, that's awesome. No, nobody, I think anybody who says that, that makes me suspicious. So let's start with a success that I'm proud of, which I'll also name the company. And then we can also talk about a failure, but I won't name the company because I think that's disrespectful. So a success is a company that I still work with,

and I think that I really love, and it's called Trinity Audio. You've perhaps stumbled upon them. It's that player on publisher websites, where you can listen to the content. And they work with some of the world's top publishers. They also have multiple solutions in general, how to create audio experiences. And this is a company that I was also their external CMO. So I was there almost from day one. So I helped them with their go-to-market strategy,

and then with the execution of the entire marketing strategy. And this was really from scratch. So working closely with Ron Jaworski, the CEO, we were really doubling down on how to get the name of Trinity Audio out there. And we created a very robust plan of how he's now talking in conferences and going on podcasts. And then, failure, there was this tech company, of course, that I think the biggest mistake

that I made with them is that I thought that it's realistic to scale my agency to a point where I can really be in the background. I believe that that was a mistake. I realized throughout the years that at the end of the day, when people come to my agency, they're also coming for my years of expertise and input. That is perhaps something that I can learn how to strike a right balance more, but with that company, I felt like my attempt to take a step back wasn't handled

in the most efficient way. I think the execution was actually not bad at all because I didn't just walk away and not be involved, but I wasn't involved enough with the customer relationship. Then, I think when they had hard questions to ask, I wasn't involved in answering. And my team at that time, who were very talented, I think this is on me, but they didn't have the tools to handle it. And I believe that that wasn't the right way to go.

So, I learned a lot from that experience. And ever since, I've been really making an effort to manage my agency in a way that I feel brings my knowledge to the picture in a more dominant way. I see. It's really interesting because I was listening to the podcast, the interview with Brian Chesky, the founder, CEO of Airbnb. And he recently mentioned about founder mode. And then he mentioned that the founder, CEO should be in the present and also the details.

So, they should hands-on and they shouldn't micromanage, but they should collaborate with their management teams and so on to work with the users, clients, and so on. And you can't let it go. So, yeah, your answer reminded me of that. And yeah, interesting. Yeah. And also, it's a huge dilemma because as a business owner, you try to see how to grow. And you also see all these marketing agencies who are turning it into a machine.

But what I at least think now, and that could change, I believe that it's sort of the difference. And I'm not saying this to belittle anybody. It's just the type of service. I am under the impression that there are types of companies that are more fast food. And I'm trying to create a more Michelin restaurant with everything that goes along with that. And perhaps it's a good fit. With AI, as we were talking before,

there are also so much that can be done through AI. So, I guess an agency can become like a monster of an agency with millions of clients. I'm kidding. But it could have a lot of clients and somehow make it work. I think what happens in my agency is different in that respect. Yeah, that makes sense. And you tapped onto the future of agency. But I'm curious, what's your ambition for the future of your agency,

Bold Digital Architects? Do you have something you want to do? Something bold or something like a daily visionary? Or you want to keep your Michelin style and quality? That's something I think about quite a lot. As an agency, I don't see it changing much from the way that I've honed it to be. As an individual, I always have this need to have other things that I do. It's part of challenging myself and also of growth,

which I think also returns back to my clients as well. So, as an individual, I'm also already involved as an advisory board member in some companies. Every once in a while, there's this startup that I find really interesting. And then I get involved at one scope or other. I always try to maintain it in a sense that it doesn't harm anything that I do. But I think I'm fairly good at managing multiple fronts.

But yeah, with respect to Bold, I'm not doing many experiments beyond trial and error that is intended for growth. Yeah, interesting. I think you mentioned that you are an advisor in a company in some countries. Your company, your agency helps marketing in other countries, not only from Israel, but also other countries. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the startups that I work with, none of them are local in the sense of serving local market.

They're all global startups. So then the location, besides the fact that the time differences and stuff like that, the location of the company, especially in a remote era, is almost insignificant. It can be United States, so you're not looking to anywhere. Okay. Yeah, it's just less convenient. You have to make more of an effort to sync and talk, and the time differences do matter. But for sure, it's an era that's a non-issue.

I see. But so how about marketing characteristics? So for example, if you expand your client's work into the United States, so this type of marketing is good. But for Europe, so this type of market is different from United States. So do you see any difference when expanding businesses into other countries? And how do you address marketing in that sense? I'm not sure I'm in a position to answer that, because the startups that I work with are always working globally

with the focus on the United States. And then in other markets, they typically also have a person on the ground, and it's more partnerships oriented and more sales. So I don't find myself using very different tactics. But of course, you have to position differently sometimes based on the target audience and where they hang out online. But that's less of a geo aspect. I see. Yeah, thanks. And so for expanding B2B tech startups,

so there should be a sales team, also marketing team, usually. Maybe so in the beginning of the company, sales team doesn't exist. But eventually, there will be sales team, also marketing team in the company. So your company has sales team, also marketing team, or only marketing team? We handle marketing. But the best companies have alignment between sales and marketing. And when that lacks, it's very felt and not in a good way.

And also marketing supports sales. So collateral and all these decks, that's something that when the relationships are healthy, everybody wins. Some dynamics that can get unhealthy is, for example, when marketing isn't appreciated in a company. And that, unfortunately, still happens these days. Even though marketing is so complex, sometimes marketing is seen as under sales. And such dynamics can really be problematic for growth.

Because they need to cooperate. And marketing, when given a real chance, can really move the needle. I see. Yeah, I can easily imagine it. Thanks. And so, yeah, kind of like going back to the previous question, but so now AI is like, you know, you're trying to, right? So and so there are many like AI tools, so like launching in this field, like, you know, predictions or measurements. Do you use any AI tools for marketing or like analytics?

Less for analytics, although I'm fascinating with it, and I'm not against it. And that's probably something to explore. I use it more for there's WordTune, for example, which is a great solution by AI Labs that really helps them sometimes rephrase the phone sentences. And I use Otter AI for transcripts and summaries, which is fantastic. But I think it's similar also to GlassPens in that respect, right? So you can edit that out.

What other tools? I do use more. I started using like AI summaries. There's Firefly AI, I'm trying to think because I do use them. They've become like such second nature that I can't even remember now which ones I use, but there are a few in my arsenal. Also, Synthesia, I started using that. That's also a fascinating topic. I started using that for AI avatars, and I'm now encouraging several of my clients

to also create an avatar because in that respect, and I can now help create video content for thought leadership of the founder without them needing to actually take part. And then we can write the scripts and publish those on social media. And in these days, LinkedIn is truly prioritizing video, so that's dramatic. So that's an AI tool that I think is doing a lot of good. Cool. And we are talking to DRU, right?

DRNoa, right? Not avatars. Yeah, this is me. Or is it? Cool. And also, you run the podcast, Real Life Superpowers podcast for over six years, and I was curious about that part. And what inspired a podcast? And I'm curious, how many people you interviewed already? I think we've recently recorded episode 80. We released one a month. And the podcast is a really great passion project of mine and Ronen Manipazes, my co-host.

It started over six years ago because it took almost a year of research and trying to figure out how it makes most sense to launch a podcast in days where it wasn't that popular, which is also a great advantage because we had an early advantage here of hitting the ground on the podcast landscape. And basically, what inspired it is this huge sensation that the media celebrates, the media, social media and the traditional media,

celebrates success in a way that we thought and still think makes people, makes it seem as if there's a gap between the average person and the person who succeeds. That there are some people who were born for success and there's the rest. And that really bothers me because I believe that the human potential is endless and that people who are able to tap into what they're good at can do anything that they want,

you know, realistically, but I think it's clear what I'm aiming for here. And the podcast was our way to see how we sit down with peak performers, some of the world's best at their industry or what they do, and just have heart-to-heart conversations as we're doing right now. I think there's something similar in what you're doing. And show that success isn't just for those people because the difference between those people and the listeners

who don't yet feel as if they're born for success is that those who succeed are in the arena and they overcome challenges and it's difficult and nothing is easy, but they persist and they're optimistic. That is something that almost all the people we've interviewed are optimistic and they are just, they're persistent with something they believe in and with a belief in themselves. And we really wanted to bridge that gap so that people could look within

and ask themselves, what can I do practically? What steps can I do to navigate towards my best self? Whatever that means. But we take the extreme examples because extreme can help then pave a road for whatever success means to that person. I don't want people to sit in that law office because they have to because doing something different is not for them. I think I really appreciate those who feel the joy

and self-fulfillment in the law office, but for those who don't and they're sitting in their cubicle, I hope our podcast helps empower to go and be the best version of themselves. Yeah, I really love it. Yeah, that's so inspiring. And also, I was so impressed by, you know, because you interviewed like industry icons, like Brian Arrigan from HubSpot and David Segal. Oh yeah, yeah. And also, you know, Neil Patel.

Yeah, that's really amazing. And do you have any memorable stories? And do you have your favorite story, favorite alibi you still remember and apply to your daily life, if you have? Yeah, I think it's funny, but somehow what jumps to mind is actually the stories of getting them on the podcast in the first place because it was so important for us to be able to get the big names, quote, unquote, and not quote, unquote, on the podcast,

because we knew that if we hack that, then we're able to pitch this to more names. And the more names that we accumulate, then that grows. By the way, I'm so happy to say at this stage that we're just approached by PR agencies, so we don't even do much outreach ourselves. But of course, that wasn't the case in the beginning. So, for example, one thing that jumps to mind was Brian Halligan. My agency was a HubSpot partner agency

at some stage of the evolution, but for a long time. And I was at a partner conference in Ireland, and Brian Halligan was there. So, when he got off the stage, I just ran to him and I was able to start a conversation as a partner in this partner day. So, it wasn't detached, like jumping him on the street. And I just told him, hi, I'm a partner agency from Israel, and I'm launching a podcast soon, and I would really appreciate it if you could be my first guest.

And I remember I was sitting at the partner's table with some colleagues, and I was telling them, I'm going to talk to him, I'm going to get him on my podcast. And they told me, no, please, that's ridiculous. He's not going to come on your podcast. There is no podcast. It doesn't exist. And I said, I'm going to get him on my podcast. That's it. I'm going to do it because it's exactly my podcast. Like, I don't think there's nothing impossible.

I'm just going to go and I'm going to make it happen. And of course, like, I was nervous that he would say no. And he just said, yeah, sure. And he told me how to reach out to him. And then I remember I sent that email, but I did not know if he would answer because, you know, those things happen, right? But I sent that email. And then I think it wasn't long after that he connected me to his assistant and we booked it.

And I also remember, like, I was very nervous before that first interview, because, like, this is, you know, these are big shots and I just invented my podcast. And yes, I researched for a year, but what experience do I have in, you know, podcasting, podcasts, but it worked well. I also remember thinking as the interview went along that I don't know if it's good, that I'm not, that I really don't know how to sense this.

And I sort of, I think it was in a bit of a bad mood even after, but then I listened to it because we had, we hired an editor and I remember a few days after, I don't know, he sent it to me and I was listening, like, so scared what's gonna come out of this. And I remember that feeling of, like, my, the growth in my body when the episode ended and then we had that theme song that we did. And I heard that thing from end to end for the first time,

of course, before editing, but nonetheless, and I remember just feeling, wow, this is really big. Like, this is something very significant that I did in my life. And I feel that this is the start of a really exciting adventure. I really remember that feeling till this day. Wow, that's a great story. And you mentioned it, you told me before, you know, people believe in their success and they can do whatever and yeah, you did it.

And that's amazing. Yeah, like, I felt like I have to do this. Like, I'm always trying to do it, you know, and to be loyal to this. Pretty much ever since I jumped off the lawyer wagon. So ever since that, I'm really trying to make sure that my day-to-day doing is something that I'm passionate about. That's awesome, yes. And then, you know, after you interview Brian and things went easier for you, because you mentioned, like, first you got a big name

so that, you know, when you ask someone to interview next time, second time, and was that easier? I'll tell you my tactic for the first year, when I think this filled up. It was pretty much the Brian Halligan tactic. I was attending conferences regardless in Boston and I think also in Ireland. There was a time in my life where I attended quite a lot of overseas conferences and my tactic was to go to the stage

as soon as the speaker finishes speaking with the exclusion of when they have, like, bodyguards and they take them behind the stage. I was never able to do that.

My feeling that it's a long shot is what tilted the scale, so I don't know. But I got to know from two people using that tactic. One was Gary Goleman, the comedian. I just saw him walking down the street in New York and I came up to him, but also this wasn't planned, so maybe it wasn't my A-game, but I remember I got to know him from hearing the James Altucher show. And then I thought he was fantastic. I think he's one of the

funniest comedians in the world. But I came up to him and I told him my regular pitch, which probably he doesn't know any name that I named up there, like Bravo Noa, and then he just told me, yeah, sorry, I don't do podcasts. But I knew him through the James Altucher show, but that's one. No, and then the other, even a longer shot, Michael Che from SNL. So I was at a stand-up show and it was like an improv or something. He just came up on the stage

and then he was sitting at the bar after the show drinking. I think he was pretty drunk, by the way, and I walked up to him and then I told him about my podcast, again, name dropping names that there's no way in the world he knows. So again, it's like, cool, dude. And he just stared at me and I said, yeah, no, sorry, but I'll listen to your podcast. So I just looked at him and I said, I think that was very Israeli of me. I told him, yeah, we both know you won't,

but thank you. And I think he was maybe a little uncomfortable with that bluntness, but those are the two no's that I got that were that tactic didn't work. And then further down the road, as I said, the more names that we got, the easier it became. And now most of the time, we just get like all these bestselling authors and keynote speakers that their PR reaches out to us, which is really fun in that respect, because we're able to sit and read and say,

nah, this isn't exactly the profile instead of running to the stage. That's interesting. So, so you did, you know, you used your growth marketing tactics to your podcast, right? And you made credibility first and then you get inbound later. So because of your quality and credibility. Yeah. Yeah. And here we also really productized it, but for sure, yes. Trust again, building trust as soon as possible. Do you have anyone you want to interview on your podcast?

Yeah, I do. I think I gave up, but I remember I was, part of my inspiration to start the podcast was the James Altucher show. I was listening to him. I learned a lot. I felt less lonely on the path to self-fulfillment and doing non-traditional things. And so after a while, I listened to, there was one episode where he was interviewing Gary Vaynerchuk and they were both saying anybody who's, by the way, yeah, this is, this is interesting story. They were saying

anybody who starts a podcast and then tweets and does three episodes and then tweets, tweets us, we're going to be the fourth and fifth guests on the show. And this was deep into my journey of, you know, within that year of researching. So I have a podcast in the works and I hear this and I think, wow, these are my fourth and fifth guests. So I had those three episodes published and then I tweeted that. And again, like James Altucher and of course, Gary Vaynerchuk, those

are names that would be fantastic to have in my podcast. And James Altucher is also somebody who I really got so much from listening to. So that was really something that would be fast, a conversation I would be fascinated to have. But unfortunately those tweets went unanswered. Gary Vaynerchuk got some, you know, just blocked by basically got some autoresponder bots, was never able to pass that wall of assistance that he has. And James Altucher just ignored, ignored me. I even went

as far, I know that he owns a standup comedy club in New York. So one of the times I was in New York, I actually wrote on a note this story about how I listened to that episode and that's what they said. And I had these three episodes and this is my podcast. And I think we're at, I'm sorry, episode 30 now, but can you be the next guest? But I never got a response. Someone listening to this podcast knows him and connected with him.

And so yeah, when we publish this YouTube video, so yeah, we will mention him. James, yeah. James, come on my podcast. It's top 10% global. We've grown. Happy to do it. Yeah. So, and yeah, also, you know, I wanted to know one more thing, you know, because you are the Forbes Business Council, right? And for like about two years, I think. And I was curious, how did you become that? Yeah. Yeah. So it's through, I'm an advisory board member of a few

startups. So one of them qualified in that context. So I was able to get accepted through it. And I think it's very helpful, you know, with respect to walking the talk and establishing presence. So I, by the way, it's also something that I recommend to my clients to become members and publish articles on Forbes or that tier of a publication. I think that's very valuable. I'm a strong believer in that tactic. Thank you.

And you already mentioned a little bit, but you know, I want to know one more thing. Like it's about your inspiration. Who, you know, what, who do you follow usually? Where do you get the information, you know, or inspiration? Do you have any favorite books or you mentioned podcast, but you know, like, like someone who you always follow and learn from or get inspiration from? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a, James Altisher was that for years, Chase Jarvis of

creative live. I think the name of the podcast is I haven't listened for a while, but I did for years. And like from a marketing perspective, I think Grant Fishkin is amazing. And then like books wise, I, I, I'm always reading something. So it's, it's I'm, I always have a book on my audible and I'm always listening. And, and I think books are amazing mentors. So I think there's value in, in, in really consuming as much as possible. And it doesn't have to be just the industry

information. I think there's also value in in reading fiction because it ignites creativity and imagination. And then, you know, and it doesn't have to be about marketing. It can be about growth in general. I really love to learn. Rarely do I not pick up something from a book. And then what's your favorite, like a book or anything like a fiction to nonfiction, any, you know, you know, three times, four times, I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm trying to think because there's, there's, there are a lot. And I don't want to, no, I don't want to give you the cliche answer because stuff like the lean startup is great, but I'll go with, you know, there's bold ironically, although I didn't name my book, my agency on that book, but bold by Peter Diamandis, I think is fantastic. And there's stealing fire by Steven Kotler and Peter Diamandis. I, I in general feel that reading

content by people who are the impossible is nothing type and, and provide real life inputs on how to, to imagine and then make the impossible possible. Those are books that I really love. Yes. Same. Yes. Yeah. What do you recommend? Which book? To be difficult question. Anything. Yeah. Which one? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for marketing, so our favorite. No, in general, like what's your, what's one of your favorite books for both of you?

So to me, it's a, it's, it's more like a philosophical, philosophical one, but you know, the, the greatest legacy for future generation, it's written by like a Japanese writer. Also he already passed.

of course, Viktor Frankl. If you have a why, you can get through any how. Or you can get through any what. Yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, we have been organizing a book reading class. So yeah, four years or five years already. So yeah, I think, yeah, we did a lot of exams. Those two are our favorite, I think. Yeah, I agree. It's definitely on my list as well, for sure. And also, one more, my favorite book is, it's called Ikigai. Ikigai is a Japanese word. And

I don't know how to pronounce it. I read, I heard a TED talk, I think it was by Susan Brown, I think, who mentioned this concept. Yeah, so I got familiar with it. But I didn't read the book. Yes, I did. I did. Yeah. I should. Yeah, good. Thanks for mentioning it. Yes. So yeah, anyway, so time is running out. So two more questions. And one is advice, and one is legacy. But one advice, since our audience are aspiring founders, and maybe aspiring

founders, and then writers, content creators, and maybe podcasters. So do you have some advice to these people? You already shared many advice and tips, but if you can add something. Yeah. One thing that I think can help, if you have to choose one thing, be persistent. Don't give up. People are looking for quick wins. And for any content effort, if not for any effort in life at all, I think persistence, deliberate persistence, if to borrow

from the deliberate practice theory. So I think deliberate efforts can really compound. And even if you grow by 1% a day, that really compounds. And I think that can make the difference between, honestly, between winning and losing. You stay in the arena and just keep on going. And I will also say, but don't be pot committed, as they say in poker. Sometimes it's time to let go. But make sure you assess when it's time to let go, when you're just giving up, and when it's

really just factually the time to stop. How can we know when to stop, really stop, and when to keep going? Because, yeah, this is a very interesting topic, right? Yeah. I think you have to figure out why you want to stop. Is it because you're getting a bit tired and you need to zoom out and re-energize? Are you seeing any indication of progress, of growth? Or if you're doing something, I heard the saying, if it's not making money for more than

five years, then it's not a business, it's a hobby. You have to have some KPIs. I will say this, set the KPIs before you start, because it's going to be difficult. And at times, you're just going to want to give up. But be able to have objective KPIs to assess your efforts and understand if this is something you're going through now, or if this is really just wrong. I see. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for the advice. And this is the last question. So since, you know,

Grasp is a platform where people can share what they're reading, learning, as their digital legacy. And we see it, you know, as this legacy of them. And so what legacy or impact do you want to leave behind for future generations? It's a big question. Huge question. No, no, right. You know, long answers. Yeah. Of course. I hope that I am able to help as many people, but even if it's one, realize that they can be great. And that it's up to them. And if they're able to screen the

noise of the pressures of society, and all the naysayers, and all the people who will tell you why you can't, and just be able to figure out what they want, and do it, then I think that would be a really great legacy. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, really beautiful answer. And yeah, making impossible possible is, yeah, I also love that. Yeah. And yeah, thank you so much for taking time today. We really enjoyed the conversation. And learned a lot. Thank you. I really liked speaking

with you both. Thank you.