Welcome back to another episode of GlaspTalk. Today, we are excited to have Raphael Hyde with us. So Raphael is a product design leader with 14 years of experience bringing innovative products to market. And he's currently serving as staff product designer at Snowflake, and was previously the head of design at Mother Duck, where he was the first hire. And before that, Raphael spent nearly five years at Google,

and as a design lead and Web3 community lead, working on major products like BigQuery. And he's also a limited partner at Plan B Ventures, investing in early-stage tech startups. What makes Raphael's journey unique is his diverse background, from founding companies to being a design fellow at Carnegie Mellon University at IDEO CoLab. So today, we'd like to explore his insights on product design in data-driven companies

and his approach to building products that serve hundreds of thousands of users globally. Thank you for joining APL today. Thanks for having me. Thank you. So, first of all, I saw your LinkedIn and you started working at Snowflake as a staff product designer. And I was really curious, why did you join and what happens? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. So, on the tail end of my mother duck experience, I was, I think, deciding where to go next in your career

after 15 years or so, I started to, I guess, prioritize more of the larger thesis of each company. And so, I was talking to a tremendous amount of companies, founders, and I guess, just like people I respected in the industry. And I really wanted to be on a team where there was really strong founder fit or leadership fit. And I think a lot of times you're not able to prioritize that, depending on where you are in your career.

And so, for me, that meant, I wanna be part of an organization where as a very passionate designer builder, I'm empowered. Whether that's like, I have autonomy or I have access to the right sort of resources. If I need to build out like a design team or I need to partner with other major stakeholders in the business, whether they're in product or engineering or marketing or sales, growth, et cetera. And each organization is gonna have

a different maturity level. Maybe those teams don't exist. And so, I felt that at this point in my career, I wanted to be a part of a team that had a lot of potential for scale and growth. Like organizationally, but then in the design function. And I think a lot of tech companies oftentimes look at the design department as like a second-class citizen. And they're not given the proper funding or support or negotiation control

during prioritization or roadmapping. And after talking to a bunch of different companies, Snowflake really actually stood out to me because their design leadership came from very mature past companies and teams. So, their actions spoke for themselves. And then as I spoke to the other leaders in the business, it seemed like design was actually very empowered as it carries out its responsibilities. And then of course, I think Snowflake being

the largest IPO in history and where we're positioned with the kind of AI race. And then I think their ergonomics and the semantics of working with data. I think they're actually positioned very well to capture a much larger global market for data practitioners, citizen data scientists. And I think just companies that are learning how important data analytics are gonna be for them to evolve to that next level.

So, I think it's going to unlock potential for every kind of company, regardless of what sector you're in. So, I think as an industry, and then from a maturity standpoint and a leadership standpoint, it seemed like a no-brainer. And now after being on the inside, I feel more than happy with my choice. Wow, amazing. And I remember at Snowflake, the leadership changed about like half a year ago or so, from the previous co-founder to a new CEO, like a CEO.

And do you think that leadership change changed the internal culture? I know you just joined, but change the culture of how they respond to AI or responsibilities in the space? Yeah, that's a good question. So, I don't have a before and after perspective, but I have been asking that question. And I actually knew Sridhar from when he was founding Neva, the Web3 company, the Atlas browser that he was building before it got acquired by Snowflake.

So, I actually met him and he asked if I could join his company, ironically. And he discovered me through this like Web3 podcast that I was producing at Google and it had some notoriety. So, it was interesting, my path of like, I knew him before when he was building this company and then he was brought into Snowflake. So, it kind of feels like we both took a little bit of a full circle together. So, I couldn't say if the culture has changed

just from a leadership shift, but I do think anytime you have a company that's founder-led and it goes through the enormous growing pain of IPO-ing and then of course becoming the state-of-the-art analytics platform in the world, and then all of a sudden that guy leaves and then the new leader is at the helm. So, these are big shoes to fill and I would be remissed if I didn't admit that there is probably an enormous culture shift

that a lot of people are still figuring out how to navigate. And I think it'll probably take me a couple of months to figure out exactly what is working and what's not working and maybe like where opportunities lie, but I think he's well-equipped, he's got a strong data background and I know having run the ads business at Google for gosh, almost a decade, I would say he's got the experience to do the job and I guess it's just a matter of him

maybe giving people like myself the right amount of runway and support so that we can empower him. Because I think end of the day, it's the people that he brings in that are gonna really help and execute on the results of his plan. So, fingers crossed. I'm gonna be optimistic. Yes. And so, also another question is I'm curious I'm always about is like, you are now a staff product designer, right? So, designer has several seniorities

like junior, middle, senior and staff. I don't know, some company has principal product designer. So, I'm curious, what's your current responsibility? Do you design the real product? Or, I mean, as seniority goes up, the more people focus on like branding, messaging, I don't know, but I'm curious how the responsibility change over time. Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of people are always wondering

as you evolve up, what are your responsibilities and what are you not doing? So, I guess I'll have to answer this with a bit of a caveat because I have somewhat of an idea what I'll be doing at Snowflake but I think I can answer that question more largely in the industry because oftentimes staff designers are kind of defined the same within most of your Fortune 500s. And then I think that definition slightly changes

depending on the maturity and the scope of your work at your company. And so, I'd say a company like Snowflake that north of $50 billion market cap, companies of the same sort of pedigree, staff designers are usually responsible for pushing the vision of the company. So, that's like, what is the mapping of the industry? You know, what are the chess pieces and how our competitors are positioning themselves with the opportunities of emerging technologies,

emerging markets, maybe emerging customers and points of friction? So, how can I work with my leaders in PM and engineering and figure out what sort of path we should take whether it's like new product development, shoring up features within our existing products or suites or services and figuring out how those can build a moat around our market or new lines of revenue so that we can continue to scale. And so, you know, obviously if you're a smaller company

let's say you are like a startup, series A, series B maybe your valuation is between like 200 million and 600 million, or if you're an AI company, a bajillion dollars, your responsibility is probably striking on product market fit. And so, you're executing a lot of tactical responsibilities on a daily basis. It can be like doing actual in the pixel feature work. You're designing the product or particular features

and then you're probably trying to review it with your stakeholders and ensure that it's resonating with your customers' needs. And then providing the same sort of validation and, you know, whether it's through releases like measuring. engagement through releases or maintaining quality as those features reach production. And so I think it's kind of a long answer, but like the health, the size of each company will

determine the responsibilities for staff, but usually at large scale mature companies, it's like trying to influence direction of the business and then probably enforcing a high level of quality and craft amongst the design department. And then whatever sort of strategic or tactical daily to-dos that they need help with. I see. So I think you started your career as a designer, but so what made you think,

so I want to become a designer? So what made your interest in design? Totally. So this is a good story. When I was really little, well, I'll start it this way. So my dad, he was a builder. He would build homes. And as a small child, I was kind of, you know, in his shadow learning how to do construction, whether it was electrical or plumbing, framing, foundation work, finishing work. And that really inspired me to work with my hands.

So I actually started my career in industrial design. And I felt that industrial design was the strongest conduit between me being able to have fun and like create things. And I didn't actually know that this field existed. I was introduced through meeting David Kelly, the founder of IDEO at a design excellence banquet. Blown me away. I was like, oh my God, you can like make products and as a job, like that's a real thing. So changed my major. You

know, this was, I was a freshman in college and immediately went into industrial design. And that was like sketching and doing, you know, human centered research. And it really captured my attention. And so that is when I went out to Silicon Valley and wanted to like build startups and, you know, had a crazy experience doing that. But during that, I realized there was this huge spike in, you know, the internet and how like data-driven design and

software was kind of eating the world from, you know, Mark Andreessen's words. So I kind of had this premonition that if you want to be the best designer, you need to understand the physical and digital and pair them together. And that is when you can cross both paradigms, understanding how humans interact with physical space and digital space. And so then I jumped into software and the goal was long down the road. I'm going to pair them

back together and I'm going to be able to do it all. That was my wishful thinking as a young designer. And so I've stayed on the digital design path for gosh, I think most of those 15 years. And I think that's where I'll stay, but that's essentially kind of where that journey started. And then I started bouncing around all sorts of companies, consultancies, and here we are. And from your background, I saw, you know, your career started like in 2006.

And it seems like you have seen the iPhone when iPhone came up, right? It's like a physical, like a beautiful product, I think at the time. And so does that change your, how to say, the motivation as a designer at the time? 100%. Because the iPhone, wouldn't say the iPhone, but I think like devices like the iPhone, they became the first contact point for us to consume kind of like notifications. We'll use

that for an example. And it starts to train our minds to think a different way. You know, there's all this subconscious interaction that we're doing on our devices and the iPhone introduced that into every element of our life. And so that meant new business models were going to be born around how can you leverage social media? How can you leverage analytics, tracking user data and how that can be built into the business models of digital products today and

the whole, you know, SaaS offerings, et cetera. And so I think seeing the world before that, I mean, this is kind of more of like a humanitarian perspective, but there was much less, you know, mental health problems. You know, people were able to kind of separate in the sense of like church and state, there is like my life without the phone and then my life with the phone, but now it has completely swallowed the world and how people interact

with everything. So it certainly influences my perspective and approach to design a lot. Yes. Yeah. That's a really great invention. And yeah, I totally agree with what you said. Yes. And then you said you met Kevin Kelly, the founder of Ideal. You met or you saw him? Yeah, David Kelly. So he was at a design excellence dinner that I actually went to when I was an undergrad and I got to meet him briefly there, like very briefly. And he was

introducing one of, well, not introducing, but talking about his, like the 10 archetypes of design and how you can use them to illustrate narratives and understand human-centered design methodologies. And so that's, yeah, that's when I met him. But later you joined, you know, Ideal Collaborate. It's also part of Ideal, right? And yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Like the coincidence. Oh, is that a coincidence or did you apply or did you?

Oh, so that was when I, when I learned about, since I learned about Ideal and product design at the same time, I looked into it and I was like, oh, I didn't know how special Ideal was. And so I kind of make a personal goal to myself. They're like, I'm going to work there one day. And then I just like working really, really hard. And then eventually I had the chance to, you know, be in the CoLab for a little while. So that was certainly kind of like a life

milestone because I never thought that that was even possible. And then, you know, being in the office alongside all these amazing thinkers and designers and innovators, it really was like a life-changing moment for me. What exactly, what actually did you do at Ideal as a design fellow, like exploring new ideas or like researching, so development, something, what, what did you do? Yeah. So the Ideal CoLab has a fascinating business model. And I think now it's evolved into

like a different kind of organization. But when I was a fellow there, we had a IP membership model with corporations. So the goal was let's do a bunch of future thinking design and research, three to five years out. And if we discover something novel, we'll share that IP with paying corporate members. And those more corporate members could be like, you know, Fortune 500 banks or like Ford Motor Company or big insurance companies. And they're incentivized by trying

to stay ahead of the curve. And so if you're a financial institution in 2017, you really wanted to know, is crypto something I should be investing in? Or if you were like an automotive company, should I be investing in IOT technology? Is there something within these emerging markets, emerging technologies rather, that are going to be really important to defending our business? And so myself, along with a bunch of other fellows, our responsibility was to basically sit

down and experiment and explore some of these really emerging technologies, build prototypes, conduct research, and kind of like really put a lot of thought into these kind of generational hypotheses. So I'll explain one. If one of the projects that we were working on, could you leverage a network of electric vehicles to be used as a place to store energy to offset carbon emissions on the grid? And if you could, you could reduce the use of coal power plants,

meaning that when coal power plants produce power, that electricity, if it's not used, it just, you lose it because there's not a large enough storage capacity for it. So it was like, could we build an arbitrage electrical marketplace? So if you own an EV, you can charge your car when you're at work, when the cost of power is actually low. And then when you go home at night and power consumption peaks, you could sell it back to

the grid at a profit. And if you could do this at scale, you could tremendously reduce the amount of power that coal power plants would need to produce. And that problem is very complex. You got to figure out what are the incentives of EV owners? What are the incentives of the car manufacturers? What are the incentives of the charging networks? And of course, what are the, what are the limitations? And then what kind of technology do we need to build so we can actually

predict how much. So it's like you're a market maker, you're a capacity management system, and then you're also kind of a liaison for all the different municipalities and stakeholders that are involved. That's one example, but there are many others, but like kind of a crazy idea. But if you were to do it right, you'd save the environment, you're providing a line of revenue for EV owners, and of course you're providing a major assistance to the municipality

and an incentive for the automotive makers to build their cars to do this better. So Interesting. Did that product become like, did that project realize? So like EV private shares, yeah. So since we were like a research lab, we would do the research and figure out like if it is possible, which we felt that it was. And then we would just give that research off to basically the members. And so Ford Motor Company, for example, they got access to our discoveries and so did like

Duke Energy, Exelon Energy, and then like the city of San Francisco. So it was like a shared effort. And then we weren't, we didn't really have a vested interest into like executing on the solution because it would, you would need enormous investment and resources from one of these companies. So what they did with those discoveries, I'm not too sure, but everyone seemed very interested that we were doing that work.

I see, yeah. And regarding those ideas and also experience, you know, you, since, you know, you have both like an enterprise experience, designers experience, and also consumer, you know, designer, consumer design experience. And I'm curious, you know, when you think about enterprise software or consumer software, or not only software, but product, physical product, is approach to the solution different,

you know, or your, as a designer, mindsets are different? And I'm really curious, you know, for those use cases, of course, there are many use cases, but for both, you know, to use different. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah. Cause I find that usually if you're designing an enterprise solution, it could be almost like a utility or a commodity for your customer. So for example, let's say you're designing enterprise data warehousing software.

And so a lot of these companies, they're kind of looking at as like, this is a commodity that I need to have to support my business operating, which is so much different than maybe like a consumer product. Like I want to design the best way for you to find a place to stay like Airbnb. And so those consumer, consumer experiences oftentimes are, they kind of have to hit a certain level of quality and delight and ease because your users, they might not be experts.

You know, your consumer could be a middle school student while if you're building enterprise solutions, it might, it might need to be so robust and so efficient that it could cost millions of dollars. And so the, the incentives for your customers. And then of course, being able to stand out amongst your competitors are vastly different. And I think that's, those will contribute to your design requirements so differently

because if the customer requirement for an enterprise tool is like, it has to cost this much and it has to be this fast. Maybe it doesn't have to be that easy to use. I think in a perfect world, like we would like enterprise tools to be easier to use, but your customer is probably an expert and they probably use it maybe every day. Now I'd call that like a toothbrush action, do it every day. So it's like, you really, really, really get good at it.

But are you using every single consumer app that you use every day? Maybe you are. And it's like, then it's more of a billing and gamification and addictive UX patterns into those products. Or like, at least people don't say that, but that's how essentially most growth driven design is formatted. So there, there are, yeah, completely different set of incentives and like design approaches that you would take for those, you know, for consumer versus enterprise.

I see. Interesting. And as you've mentioned, you know, based on, you know, which company or which product you work for is your policy as a designer, you need, you are constantly getting like inspirations from many experiences, right? I assume, you know, and that's what I believe great designers do and, but for, you know, which product you work for is your process of getting inspiration, different. And also I'm curious, which is harder for you.

Oh, which is harder, consumer versus enterprise? And how to get inspiration for each case. Yeah, totally. That's a great question. So I'll answer the inspiration one first. I find that the pendulum swings so much in the design industry because like the zeitgeist is going to define trends, styles, color palettes, like different behaviors, ways you will engage your user. And so for example, being born in a generation where I didn't have a phone till I was like

probably 16, I wasn't building up those habits from a very young age. And so the things that might inspire your users are going to be correlated to like when they started to use certain devices or like they're going to have a standard of quality that they may expect. And so if you're building, so if I'm looking for inspiration for like a consumer product, like what are the sorts of styles that are going to resonate with a user that could be

very young? Maybe it needs to be a louder brand or a very passionate design language. Maybe it needs to have a lot of color, imagery, video, like the types of things that are going to be more palatable to a younger generation because those are the kinds of experiences that are being fed to them all day long. And I have to be able to compete. To get their attention or to, to allow them to see the value add to their life, depending

on what the experience is. If we're talking about an enterprise tool, I'll give you an example. Maybe you're building a really comprehensive analytics tool and your users are data scientists, right? They've went to school for eight years and they know how to do very high levels of math. And they're trying to like find a needle in a haystack to answer a critical business question. And so these people are so well-versed in the types of tools.

And I would say like the ergonomics of a, of a like data analytics workspace. And so you got to be able to empower that person, like give them superpowers, which is a whole different type of strategy. And so to be inspired, to find inspiration, to, to like highly leverage that kind of user, the inspiration is totally different because it's more about being very productive in that environment versus being entertained.

And so if I'm trying to like design for a really young user, then I might go look for inspiration in pop culture. I might go try to figure out, you know, what are the kinds of very sticky and palatable artifacts that they're seeing in the music industry, in gaming, versus like, if it's a more enterprise related tool, it's like, what are the kinds of experiences that really leverage flexibility in a tool, ease, maybe stuff that has to deal with like reducing

the amount of distractions. And so the inspiration is going to come from very different kinds of places. But me personally, I usually look across like all different kinds of domains, because I think you can cross reference points of inspiration. So like right now I'm thinking that a lot of data practitioner tools are starting to introduce, you know, a lot of LLMs and AI. And so there's this conversational, excuse me, medium that we're trying to introduce.

And those conversational mediums are arising in all sorts of things. Like maybe it could be in gaming, maybe it could be in how we administer certain healthcare services to people, or support services. So it's a pretty wide spectrum. So I hope that answers your question. Yes, it answers a lot, yeah, to my question. And also you tapped into AI, you know, an interesting topic, you know, nowadays people use AI for not only writing something, but also coding, also, you know, like designing.

And so some people say, yeah, first of all, has AI changed how you work, how designers work? And secondly, you know, some people say about AI safety, you know, some people say, oh, super optimistic, oh, let's go more, let's go forward, you know, or, you know, but some people say, oh, we should stop, you know, so, yeah, could you answer this question, like, how? I'll try to be brief about the first one. So how AI has changed how I work.

I'm very curious. And so I kind of experiment with all the AI tools I can get my hands on. So whether it's different ML notebooks or what Claude is doing, what ChatGPT is doing, what Gemini is doing, and try to see how that can be incorporated into my work. So whether it's summarizing text or helping me even just think through basic problems. But it's more of a more efficient Google search for me. I haven't found that very many LLMs

have been a part of my daily design process. And I think the challenge there is usually if, well, it depends on the kind of product you're working on, but I'm usually working on very specific micro-interactions within a very particular data workspace. And these types of problems are so laser focused that AI tools usually don't have the same sort of intuit to understand how a human might make mistakes as they navigate

a digital workspace. It might help me brainstorm on different problems or ways that a user might navigate that. But it really kind of comes down to, can I design an experience and can I almost synthesize the different ways a user might use it? If the question was, give me a hundred different ways that I could sort menus, it's going to go look through the internet and find me a bunch of old news and ways I could do that. And maybe it'll help stimulate some thinking around that.

But oftentimes it's really like when the pen hits the paper or the mouse hits the pixels and you're kind of like painting a canvas of ideas. And so I think the, I guess the designer to AI heuristics of being able to help supplement some of the creativity behind my process, that is a much harder gap or chasm to cross. So it hasn't become as big a part of that, but it will, I think it certainly will make a huge impact and how PMs define requirements,

provide evidence and supplemental research for their findings, or at least the priorities that need to be set. And of course, like a lot of engineering work, being able to produce more efficient code or consolidate functions. And then I think also helping designers really leverage their design process through code. So I think that's certainly an area. And your second question was, I forgot your second one. Safety. Yeah. Because AI impact, if AI impacted,

how about your job security for some people and some people are concerned about AI. Yeah. So about a year ago, and I think COVID certainly influenced this because I think the story that, I think the way we'll be telling this story in a couple of years was like during COVID, we hit this kind of economic boom and a bunch of Fortune 500 tech companies like moon to the sky and their stocks went up. And then all of a sudden we saw this pullback in

the economy and there was a tremendous amount of layoffs. And if you look at the trajectory of hiring across all the different roles, design largely did not change. And so Carta publishes data around like how startups are hiring and spending across different verticals and other, other there are some management consultancies like Boston for sure to produce different hiring data on this. But at least what I've, what I saw was I think a lot of companies started thinking

they could replace designers with AI. And so there was a huge pullback on hiring for design, you know, companies like Google and Amazon, I felt were trying to hire lower level designers to do more of the player coach more on maybe even on the management side work, but not, not fairly compensating them for it. And so I think what that means was there was a lot of assumption that AI could be able to consolidate the needed skills to do the job.

And after about a year, I felt like then that reversed. And I talked to a lot of design leaders in the industry, and it's, it seems to be a pattern that emerging technologies come in. There's an attempt of consolidation across the cost of resourcing within your business. And then you start to see it affecting your bottom line and not being able to execute properly. And so whether it's like those that are managing budgets or headcount, I think they started to

pivot back to like, we really need the proper design leaders. So I say all that to answer your question, because I actually think AI certainly is going to be a major threat to a lot of knowledge workers, especially people that are like processing information and then converting it to useful artifacts, whether it's like, I'm a PM and I define requirements based on market research to drive change in my organization, or I'm a designer that's

interpreting customer needs, and then manifesting a design solution, a digital solution that we can eventually build into the product. And I think there are many steps throughout all those different roles that will eventually be consolidated and probably replaced in some capacity. But being able to work as a team, I think that piece, that is going to be much harder to replace. So if I were to be honest, I don't feel very bullish about the future of young designers

in their career, because the skill set is going to dramatically shift. And I think those that have very strong domain expertise, along with those like tactical design skills will be successful. But it's really hard to develop that skill set without having a lot of years of experience. So we're in this very painful chicken egg situation, and I'm certainly, I'm kind of nervous about it. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, many people are talking about AI, and people usually talk about positive things,

positive side of AI. So yeah, we need to keep looking into it and how to adapt to it. So yeah, you mentioned that product leaders, I mean, just curious, what is a trait of great designers? So do you have any things in mind? So good designers trait or characteristic, or potentials, or skill set experience? Yeah. So, and I'll speak to this through the lens of digital product designers. I find that really effective digital product designers are ones that can prototype,

and that are willing to take really critical feedback and iterate quickly on the product. And so, and it's a little different skill set. It's kind of like removing any sort of personal sensitivities, because if the goal is to make the business successful, which is like what pays for you to have a job, then you should always prioritize making the thing better, versus like, maybe I get offended because the feedback hurt my feelings.

And that's tough, because you want to build an organization that celebrates trust, and empowers people to do the best work they can with the necessary resources. But you don't want to overspend, you don't want to waste time. And so, I find that really it just comes down to designers that have figured out a way to quickly communicate their ideas visually, and then being able to iterate on that quickly. I mean, it's so simple, but I find this to be

such a hard thing. So, I'll give you another good example. I started my career where we drew everything. Everything was design sketching, and then you would be able to sit in a room with your teammates, and design through ideas, and then being able to have a very articulate conversation around like what's good and bad. And you could quickly reach consensus. And I think that's really what all these companies are trying to do. They're trying to take a ton of knowledge

with people that are navigating an ambiguous landscape, being able to take those ideas, manifest them in a way where we can build alignment, and then we can move one step forward. You're not going to get it perfect the first time. So, if you can at least perform that operation effectively, then you're always moving forwards. And I think designers are often, they're the participants that are the connective conduit that helps people take their ideas and

then manifest them into the world. And so, if you can develop any sort of skills, whether it's like drawing, workshopping, prototyping, so you can manifest those ideas and quickly find alignment amongst the people you're working with, you are inevitably creating value within the business. And then you sprinkle on domain expertise. So those great trades when you are hiring designers, do you have any like tips or like design,

not designer hiring flow to find those, you know, great designers first? Yeah, absolutely. So I think one way is like, let's co-design together. And a common exercise in interviews is like the whiteboarding exercise. I'm gonna give you a design prompt and I'm gonna say design the best alarm clock in the world. And you're gonna go crazy and you're gonna start communicating your ideas, asking about any limiting questions.

What are some of the constraints that, you know, I have to operate within? Who's my customer? And if you can at least like kind of walk me through the order of operations of how you think and how you communicate your ideas, are you gonna do it manually with like pen and paper or through like Figma or other design tools? That helps me kind of see your process. And are you a team player? How do you take criticism?

How do you take, you know, maybe crazy constraints? Like we don't know and like figure it out. And I think that that's really how you kind of see people perform under pressure. And then hopefully they're also kind of introducing really novel things around like I designed this because it might allow us to build the business in this way. And that's gonna allow us to carve out a new line of revenue and then we can do experimentation and blah, blah, blah.

So that's one thing. And I think another is like, how do they storytell? Like if your job is to build alignment and evangelize an idea within a team or a company, you have to be a really good storyteller. You know, how can you capture your audience and like inspire them to kind of go in a specific direction? And if you can, I mean, that's a very valuable skill. And I think a lot of people, I think designers oftentimes can be introverted.

And I think that's fine, but oftentimes good storytellers need to be extroverted. You know, are you comfortable speaking to a large group of people and having conviction but also an open mind to change? And I think then you can do that through other kinds of like storytelling, you know, testing, you know, mechanisms. Interesting. Yeah. And I'm particularly curious about, you know, the first designer, first hire designer at the company

because you were the first hire at Mother Duck, right? So then, and since we are looking, we are, you know, a team of like developers and we don't have designer, we are looking for designer. And then how can we find the fastest center? And also what the designers looking for the company, I mean, if they are the first hire, what is the best case and how can we improve this process? Yeah, I think that's the million dollar question.

How do you find the needle in the haystack? You're perfect for them, they're perfect for you. It's like dating. So I guess it's hard, but I think it probably just comes down to, you know, do you guys have a very compelling story that's gonna gravitate to somebody with a certain set of creative skills? And so if your objective is to build a particular product in a particular industry, then, I mean, I don't know exactly what you guys are doing,

but like, let's speak in hypotheticals here. You know, some designers might be attracted to the idea that they get to put their stamp on something. They get to own how this product is gonna evolve, maybe visually or through its like user experience patterns. And so if you find that's important to you, you know, kind of evangelize that, you know, through your job description or your network and how you're kind of advertising for this new hire.

And I think there are designers with all different kinds of strengths. But I think one of the thing that I keep in mind is, excuse me, I want to hire or work with people that also see a future in what we're doing. And so is there a broader sense of purpose or mission that they might gravitate to? And if that is not palatable, then like, are you really building the right kind of company that people are gonna want to invest their time in

and their future and grow with you? Cause you're gonna spend a ton of time and money to maybe bring them on and foster them up. And so like, I guess thinking of in the zeitgeist, there are probably notable elements that people are flocking towards. A lot of people want to work in AI cause there's a lot of money in it. There's a lot of promise cause that industry is gonna grow tremendously. And so are there important attributes

in the work that you're doing that are aligning with the zeitgeist and that are gonna give a future and opportunity to somebody who maybe has a different set of values, but you gotta figure out kind of where that crossover is. And I think without knowing the specifics of the scenario you're working under, it's kind of hard to prescribe something, but I'd say that's generally an approach that I would take. And how about this situation?

Like, let's say one candidate is very passionate and resonate with our mission, but a lack of skill. But one has a really great skill, but they don't resonate with our product, but they are okay working with us. Which one should we, but not we, but the startups or the company looking for first hire, first designer should take? Yeah, you're describing me like 15 years ago. I had no skill and a lot of passion.

So I think, I mean, it probably depends on the company and where you can, what you can afford. Because I am a firm believer that if you can find somebody who's highly motivated and passionate, you can teach them those skills. But do you have the time? Like, is there someone on your team that's gonna mentor that kind of person? So I think as a first designer in a startup, they often need to be someone who's pretty seasoned.

You don't have to hold their hand. They're gonna know how to navigate ambiguity, build and maintain design resources, inform you of the gaps that are needed for design engineering and product to be successful together. And so I think oftentimes startups are kind of trying to find the unicorn that's willing to work for like no money. And so unless you can find somebody who's very, very motivated and not very financially motivated,

then maybe you can lock in that unicorn. But I often find that the first hire at a startup really needs to be somebody who they're gonna probably have to compensate them at the market rate or provide some sort of equity package that will hopefully grow into something meaningful because they're gonna have to come in with the right set of skills to not cost you in other ways of like lacking domain expertise or industry knowledge,

or even maybe like connections in the industry that can help you guys leverage your network for sales or distribution if it's a startup. I feel like those people have to be kind of a jack of all trades and already be maybe personally invested in the problem that you're solving so that they see a future that also starts to give them warm fuzzies when they do the work. Yeah, thanks. And so going back to like, you know,

storytelling question, like, you know, storytelling part. So how do you like, you know, find out if like, you know, candidate is a great storyteller or not? So in the design interview process or hiring process at Snowflake, so does Snowflake provide a story with candidates so that they can tell a Snowflake story or like, you know, designers have to, has to have like, you know, their own story and tell it to you.

How do like, you know, do you give like story or like? Yeah, exactly. So exactly. Usually the formal interview process, and this is kind of the same across most companies is you'll have a panel presentation and you're going to present to a team of peers at the company. And usually it's the team you're going to be on. Maybe it has some designers on it, some product managers and engineering or whoever else they want to attend.

And you get to present a case study or two on your own work. And that is a quick forum for them to see how well do they articulate why they were the best person for this job and the work mattered to the business. And if they can convince you of that 30 minutes to an hour, then they probably did a good job telling a story. Because usually that's kind of what it's manifested. from And I think that's kind of the

story that every company wants from their designers, because that is how they're going to be working in the business. Usually every designer and their skill set is going to vary. Some are not going to be the storytelling type, but maybe they're amazing at doing like really fine tactical work. And that's good, too. And that's very important, depending on what you problems are trying to solve. And so I find that that presentation is

kind of the best way to suss that out. Oh, yeah, thank you. Yeah. And sorry, it's a little bit over. But, you know, since time is around, you know, we want to ask you. So since our audience are like, like aspiring founders, product managers, designers and writers, newsletters, writers, researchers. So I want to ask you the advice and to, let's say, aspiring designers, you know, people who want to go for designers as a career and

what kind of advice would you give them? Totally. So. Ironically, this is the same advice I'd probably give to just most people, because I think it I think it's I think it separates the the good from the great do hard things. Do lots of hard things and build up thick skin, because if you're starting out in your design career or you're in the middle of it or you're at the end of it. It's not going to be easy and you got to be able to

overcome all sorts of challenges, whether it's people problems, learning a new technology, navigating an ever changing industry. And that's only going to become easier if you can do hard things. And so I don't want to tell people what those hard things should be, but like find ways to challenge yourself and put yourself out of your comfort zone. Public speak. I don't know. Go learn stand up. Go learn a new sport. Go learn a new programming

language and struggle. And struggle every day. And when you're done struggling, struggle some more and you're going to be you're going to become so damn good at your job because you're not going to be afraid of, you know, being confronted with ambiguity or adversity, and you're not going to sweat the little things because you're going to know that maybe I woke up at five o'clock every day and I busted my ass in the gym.

And that was the hardest part of my day. So I can actually go to work and I can work on the computer. And it was a lot easier than doing 100 pull ups. Or maybe it's like I need to go like running in the woods when it's freezing out and I'm soaking wet. Thank God I get to go to work because it's warm in there or like I'm learning this super complicated programming language and it's very frustrating. I have no clue, but at least I

get to go do some creative work now. So it's it's like more like life advice. But I find that in every discipline, the thing that most people struggle with is, you know, things are hard and you just need to kind of like confront that in the face and and just take it on. And maybe one other thing, actually, that I would add to that is like figure out like what your your driving purpose is. Like what why are you doing this?

Are you motivated by money? Are you motivated by like wanting to build cool technology? Do you want to be a part of a certain company that has a larger purpose in life? You know, whatever that thing is and figure that out and really like put a lot of pressure on that and meet some of the best people in the world that are doing that thing and convince them to mentor you. And I think once you find somebody who can really

kind of kick you in the butt and tell you like what you're doing wrong, what you're doing right, that's going to help tremendously. I think doing hard things and finding the best people to push you, if you're willing to give back to them because you don't waste their time. I think if you just keep doing that, you will undoubtedly be become very good at your job, especially if you are coming up in the design industry today.

That's a great advice, like getting out of comfort zone and also being surrounded by great people, best people, you know, because you are average of five people, you sound like that. And that's right. So, yeah. And this is the last question. And by the way, so since Grasp is a platform where people can share what they are reading, learning about the legacy. And then also this project since you mentioned the purpose

and driving, you know, driving force, internal driving force. And since I had a subdural hematoma when I was 20 and so left side of my body was paralyzed and I was almost dead. So but I wanted to give some support to people while I'm alive so that I could feel a sense of contribution to humanity, society, others. So since then, I've been thinking about how I can leave something for other people while I'm learning or

studying. So that's how we got the idea of Grasp. And that's why we are working on Grasp. It's like a huge mission to democratize access to other people's learning before they pass away or after that, even after they pass away, you know, we can see, you know, others can access it and could be a good way to circulate knowledge. And so then I'd like to ask you what legacy or impact do you want to leave behind for future generations?

Yeah, by the way, I love that. I love the mission and your story. That's incredible. So thank God you're able to overcome that. And that's what a what an incredible reason to to do something of purpose. So thanks. Thanks for for sharing that. So ironically. I my motivation is actually stems from when I was younger, my older brother, he got very sick and and then he became a and a quad lateral amputee. And so from that experience,

it basically taught me that like life is not fair. And if he can overcome the most outrageous trauma and challenges and then now be able to live a whole life and do all these things like I have no reason to have any excuses. So that's kind of what's built up this like thick skin mentality that I've been evangelizing. And so I think the way I want to be remembered is. That. You know. Have a very strong set of like a strong code of ethics

to do the right thing. And ensure that that is at the bedrock of all the work that you do. And so I'm very morally driven like I. I think it's very important to build an ethical business. I think using manipulation and like sabotage through technology, it just it bothers me that a lot of companies are data mining and trying to kind of get inside of our minds, whether through social media or other kinds of manipulative micro

interactions. And they're they're leveraging that to make billions of dollars. And I think. That just it's just on so many levels, I just think it's wrong. And so I think having having a strong set of ethics to drive the work that you do is really important because I think that also they'll they'll be a good example for up and coming designers and creators in the industry that you can also do good work that is for good.

I know it is not possible for everybody and a lot of people are going to are not going to be able to get that job. And so there are stepping stones. So I guess it's more so that I would love to be remembered that I was able to make a meaningful impact in the technology industry through high quality design patterns that push the industry forward to a very high standard that allowed us to have. Very wholesome and impactful user

experiences that didn't manipulate users for profit. And how that manifests is going to be super different within every company. But I think that's something that I have cared about for a long time from when I first became a designer. And it's something I will continue to try to kind of execute on as I grow in my career. Thank you for the beautiful answer. Thank you. Yes. And yeah, thank you for joining in and sharing your

story and experience and insights with us today. Thank you. Yeah, this is this is fun. I rarely get to talk about this these topics, so it's nice to ask myself like, oh, this is this. why I'm here. So thank you.