How to Master the Art of Learning in a Fast-Paced World by Michael Simmons by Kazuki

How to Master the Art of Learning in a Fast-Paced World by Michael Simmons

Kazuki

Nov 1, 2024 11:42 PM

Summary

Introduction to Guest (00:06-00:36): Michael Simmons, a renowned expert in "learning how to learn," joins Glasp Talk. He is a three-time seven-figure education entrepreneur, best-selling author, and contributor to major publications like Time, Fortune, and Harvard Business Review.
Inspiration for Writing (01:08-02:26): Michael's passion for learning ignited at age 16 when he realized the value of insights gained through books. He started journaling at 19, which enhanced his writing skills and cultivated a desire to share his insights with others.
Focus on Learning (02:59-03:37): He emphasizes the importance of learning to learn, noting that he wanted to maximize the value derived from the vast number of books he read. This led him to explore effective learning strategies.
Writing for Publications (04:12-05:13): Michael initially wrote for Entrepreneur.com during college and gained traction at Forbes in 2012, which allowed him access to other major publications due to his credibility and content performance.
Medium Audience Growth (05:55-06:59): He discusses how his expertise and well-researched articles on Medium, taking an average of 60 hours each, led to significant readership growth and engagement, averaging around 200,000 views per article.
Managing Curiosity (16:43-19:22): Michael believes curiosity is innate and essential for learning. He suggests nurturing it by asking questions and exploring interests, which fuels motivation and makes the learning process more enjoyable.
Legacy and Future Goals (39:18-48:18): Discussing legacy, Michael emphasizes that impactful interactions and the knowledge shared contribute to a lasting legacy over time. He runs a newsletter called "Blockbuster Blueprint" that focuses on thought leadership and encourages continuous learning while building an audience.

Transcript

Welcome back to another episode of Glasp Talk. We are very excited to have Michael Simmons, a renowned expert and thought leader in the field of learning how to learn. And Michael is a serial entrepreneur and a three times seven-figure education entrepreneur and best-selling author and a respected contributor to prestigious publications such as Time, Fortune, and Harvard Business Review. And he's also one of the top writers on Medium and has over 72,000 followers, which is really

impressive. And his work has empowered countless individuals to master the art of learning. And also he runs Master to Master Mental Model Club and so on. And so today we are very excited to dive into his insights and experience today. And thank you for joining, Michael. I'm really excited to be here and to be an interviewee in your podcast. Thank you. So, first of all, you are a very, very famous writer, but we want to know what made you

to become a writer? I feel like just like we have an innate desire for curiosity as children, and I feel like as we learn things, I feel like there's some sort of innate desire to express ourselves as well. And so at least that's what I felt as I, when I was 16, I just became addicted to learning and the idea that I could buy a book and get years of people's experiences for $15. And then, and I was just the most edited, most refined thoughts on a particular area.

And then after doing that for a few years, I realized that a lot of my insights were different than my fears were having. And so that gave me a desire to want to share them with other people. And so I also, I just started when I was 19, I started journaling an hour every day. I went to a creativity conference and I was convinced about the power of journaling. And I really kept that up over the years. And I think that also helped with writing publicly.

I see. And now you focus on like learning how to learn or empowering individuals, other individuals to learn better the art of learning. And I'm curious, why did you choose that topic or why you were intrigued by that topic early days? Well, I think in some ways I'm surprised I didn't get to it sooner. So I became really excited about learning in 1998 and buying all these books and things like that. And I did, I took a course on like photo, like speed reading and things like that, but

I didn't really become rigorous. I was like, okay, I'm reading hundreds, okay, thousands of books, but okay, if I'm going to read so much of my lifetime, why wouldn't I actually learn how to learn better, like pick better books to read, memorize them, process them more deeply, use them in my life. So I just saw it as one of the most valuable skills someone could learn. I see. And it leads to like learning in public and that kind of topic and concept, I guess, eventually.

Yeah. Yeah. So you contribute to many major media publications, like Fortune, Time, and Harvard Business View. How did you get that job? Did you reach out to them or did they offer you to write something? I was first wrote for, when I was in college, I wrote a little bit for entrepreneur.com. They had a teen startup section. I did a few publications then. But in 2012, a friend of mine introduced me to Forbes and they were looking for people

who are entrepreneurs or experts, but not journalists to be writers. And so my writing did really well there. So that made it very easy to get into other publications. I think, you know, all the publications are looking for, you know, people who are credible, people who can write well, they don't need to edit it. And they're looking for the content, what they write to perform really well. So I was able to provide that.

I feel like it's a lot of markets, on the one hand, it feels hard to get in. But on the other hand, it's actually easy if you have what they're looking for. Because on the other hand, they're looking for how do we get more great content. And so what was your first fabrication you write for? Forbes, I would say, yeah, I wrote a little bit for other publications when I was younger, but I feel like this part of my writing career started at Forbes.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, the first fabrication is pretty impressive. And so at that time, were you writing on Medium as well? Yeah, I started writing in Medium in 2015, 2016. Okay, very late. Yeah. Okay. But you have, you know, 70, over 72,000 followers on Medium. That's very impressive. I've never seen someone like, you know, like, who has that many followers. And how did your audience grow over time? Did one of your posts, you know, go viral, or you're featured by someone?

I think Medium's algorithm fit really well to the type of articles I wrote, which are heavily researched, pretty long form. And they met a lot of other algorithms, the times people spent reading it. And I spent a lot of time editing it. So each article took me, on average, over 60 hours. I spent time editing and creating really good titles, so it was enticing. And so probably my average article out of all my Medium articles is like 200,000 views,

or something like that. That just did well. And once people read one, then they would read other posts. I see. And was it growing like exponentially, or like it's linearly growing in terms of like subscribers or followers on Medium? I'd say, you know, some articles were a lot more than others. But I felt like it was pretty linear. Linear. Okay. And so, yeah, you mentioned that it takes around 60 hours to write one article, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So which part do you take? So does it take to write or to prepare? So for example, if you're researching takes 30 hours or something, editing or writing, so which part takes more, the most? I'd spend the most time on the research. And I chose a writing process that wasn't necessarily the most efficient. So how can I publish the most? It was focused on quality, but also how can I create, share rare and valuable ideas

that weren't being shared anywhere else? And it was also based on my curiosity. So even though it took 80, you know, 80% of my time was on research, that was also the reward for me. It was things that I was deeply curious about and wanted to learn more about. But at the same time, editing is an endless process, right? And you can, I mean, if you want to edit, you know, you can edit forever. And at some point you need to publish.

And how do you decide, okay, this is ready or not? Do you have peer reviewers or friends? You ask friends to review and how does that? Yeah. I would say I'd ask for feedback and I had a form to say, like, I forget the exact question, but how much of a blockbuster do you think this is? 10 out of 10 to one out of 10. And so, you know, I'd like to get an idea that, like, people feel like this is like, really like an A to 10 or higher.

And for me, I would ask, like, am I, is this a, you know, before I publish, is this a blockbuster? It's a really basic question, but it's kind of just like a moment of honesty. And oftentimes I found that it's like, okay, it's there. Like, I really want it to be done, but it's not quite done. And so that would often have to rewrite huge parts of it. But just keeping a commitment to that level wasn't powerful.

And then also, am I proud of what I've written here was another criteria. I say this year, I'm doing an experiment where Medium really changed their algorithm to make it more human curated. So I, the articles don't do as well there. And it also made me want to have to write somewhere where I felt more in control of the algorithm versus like you build up a following and then suddenly the algorithm changes.

And so I'm now on Substack and I've been testing doing it weekly. So I'm putting less, a little bit less time into articles, but also because I've done so much research and so much practice writing, I'm able to create a pretty high quality level. So I'm kind of deciding, do I still, do I like that or not? It's working in some respects, but in other respects, I do enjoy just deep diving into research and having a whole day of just going deep on research.

And when you do research and how do you manage what you research? I mean, so there's so many interesting ideas on the internet and academic papers and so on. Do you collect ideas into Google Docs, Notion or Pocket, do you have some? I've used a lot. So I do have Notion that I use, but I've also find that a great structure is actually writing the articles in real time. So if you come across interesting research, it's like creating a draft and writing the article.

That article writing itself is actually a pretty awesome note-taking system. And because it's forcing you to, all the steps you would take to write an article, to teach other people are also the steps you need to go through to teach it to yourself. So kind of a win-win that you get, it grows your learning and you could share it. I feel like by the time I've written an article, I just really deeply understand the information and will probably remember it forever.

I mean, so yeah, so on your Medium articles and Substack articles, I see many great and so many good examples from past people. So where do you usually get ideas or what kind of, yeah, what is a source of information or knowledge for writing or for your personal learning? I'd say it's evolving. So I went through a period where in every area, I kind of had this realization just through reading books. One book is like Halo Effect, where a lot of times people who are celebrated as experts

are not experts. They might have got lucky in some level, they've been at the right time, right place. And then they created an explanation for why they were successful. And so, and I also saw that there's a difference in the level of success versus one level of success versus the top in all time. They might be actually, they're both technically successful, but they have fundamentally different approaches.

So I kind of had, I developed very fine criteria, people who are true experts, who are at the top of the top of their craft. And I found that really valuable. And then I feel like I hit a little bit of a plateau with that methodology on a personal level that I feel like a lot of people are saying are very successful in their career on metrics that could be easily measured like book sales or net worth or something like that.

But I feel like I've gotten a little bit older, my kids have gotten older. I'm also interested in my own, exploring my own intuition. And like that is a source of knowledge and tapping into that more. And I'm also, you know, want to learn from people who are a little bit more well-rounded. I think oftentimes for somebody to become world-class at something, they're just very myopically focused on that one thing. And they do make sacrifices in other areas of their life.

And I was finding that I really value holistic parts. Like when it comes down to it, like I don't really need a billion dollars or desire to be like on the, I'm not against it, you know, but I don't want to like sacrifice almost every waking moment towards that, or to like being on a list of most prestigious or something, people. So I've kind of been reinventing my writing as well, more recently. I see.

So to reinvent, you know, your writing and also like for personal growth and do you do book club with some people? Because recently I saw, you know, the interview you and, you know, with Karl Newport and, you know, I didn't know you guys are friends and, you know, you have really great writers as, you know, friends, you know, as a writer and do you exchange ideas? So it's, I don't really do book clubs, but I have pretty wide network of people who were just really passionate about learning, growing as individuals.

And I kind of know what different people are, you know, some, one person might be very successful entrepreneurs, a Vestor, another person might be into AI, another person might be a fellow writer. And so I learned a lot from having a network of people such that anything I'm curious about and really excited to share, there'd be somebody interested in it. And then vice versa, I love listening to what other people are learning in those areas as well. So not a book club, but it's, I guess, an idea club.

I see. But how do you like reach out? So are there your existing friends or like, are you reaching out to a professional to learn from them? It's a combination. It's like, you feel like, let's say you feel like you've had a good conversation with someone and rapport. Oftentimes it's like, okay, we'll connect in a year or something like that. And then you just touch.

I feel like in those situations, sometimes I'll say like, Hey, you know, I love learning and, you know, sharing ideas. And, you know, would you be interested in, do you ever do voice notes? Would you be interested in changing info and just seeing how it works? And then most people say yes, because people I ask are pretty selected where there's some rapport and then some people like, you know, already love notes, other people it's new. So, but those are, that's how it evolves.

I think you're following your curiosity to learn something new and expanding your knowledge and interesting topics you want to follow. Right. But I think, you know, like many people are struggling with, I would say, following the curiosity or learning and new topics and so on. And do you have some advice or how, how can they like overcome this, you know, like a curious, you know, to how to say circulate the curiosity and knowledge and so on?

I think curiosity is this innate sense that we have, like we're kind of born learning machines and oftentimes we shut it down because it's not directly on the direct path to the goals that we have. And over time of studying and learning, I've actually become more and more convinced that curiosity is maybe one of the most fundamental hacks. The more we invest in our curiosity, the better we can get at understanding.

The more we invest in our curiosity, the better we can get at refining our taste and noticing how different things trigger our curiosity. And then building the muscle of, if we're curious about something, we have a question about it, like actually looking for the answer to it in any area of our life. And when we're curious, number one, it gives us a compass. The oftentimes there's something, it's not just some random sense that we're just curious about random things. There's something interesting about it.

So we have this ability to notice things that are interesting. And I just always find that there's a deep curiosity. There's always something profound at the end of it, guiding it. Curiosity is also a source of motivation. When we're deeply curious about something, you know, you could do it for five hours and then you have more energy than when you started or for 10 hours. And so it's pride's direction and more energy. The energy is contagious when you're really curious about something, makes you a more effective communicator

and teacher of that idea. It's just more fun to feel curiosity than to feel like, okay, I got to go through my to-do list and I know parts of it I don't really want to, but I have to because it leads to the goal. I'm not saying that discipline isn't important. I just think it's more fun to be, you know, explore one's own curiosity. We all have a unique curiosity. So the more we follow our curiosity, the more unique we become.

And in a world where there's a million people creating content and, you know, being unique in the way that's authentic to you is fundamental. And then there's also research that when we're curious about something, we just memorize the information way better. So what, it's so simple. It's like one of those things sitting right in front of us. Everyone's heard about the power or like to be curious about the world, but it's one of those very simple things that if we give ourselves permission to, a lot of the learning

things we want to develop happen just automatically without even trying. And also I love, you know, you do like a master to master, right? Where you empower people, learn something and also teach something at us so that it's kind of Feynman technique. So that teaching by learning and, you know, I loved that concept. Yeah. Yeah.

I think one of the best ways to, ironically, like I'm studying all these learning techniques and then writing about it. And then I felt like I learned the most actually through the writing process. So the writing process itself was incredible learning engine and forcing function. It kind of says like, it's a way for me to get paid to follow my curiosity. And it allows my curiosity to evolve like in 60 hour increments, basically. Yes. Rather than like five year increments or something where it's like, okay, I'm starting a company.

I might, I, you know, it's hard to be curious about other things that don't directly help the company unless you set aside extra time. So I love the idea of a kind of a little bit of a lifestyle business of making it my job to follow my curiosity. I see. Interesting. But so maybe it's kind of a redundant question, but so what do you think, like, you know, what curious the curiosity, you know, because like,

you know, I believe curiosity is important. So it's beautiful to follow their curiosity, but so not many people are following their curiosity because it's probably shut it down, as you mentioned. So yeah, they are probably not, you know, courage to follow their curiosity. So do you have any thoughts like what kills the curiosity? And for people, for those people who don't dare curiosity, so what kind of otherwise do you give?

Yeah, there's a, I read a book when I was in high school called how to think like Leonardo da Vinci. And I think it still holds up as a workbook as well. And I remember one of the things that talks about is like Leonardo is kind of person who would just ask, why are the clouds blue? You know, or like something that everyone sees every day, but might not or not the clouds, but why is the sky blue? And there's just so many things that right around us, that we don't

understand that sometimes even being curious about the small things, the curious things that or if somebody is talking and ask, and they say something, and you kind of understand it, but you don't really understand it. So there's like, like, asking a follow up, or I'm like, what did what did you I kind of think I understood, but what did you actually mean? I tried to practice that.

There's a lot of times I don't really understand what the person was saying, but I just don't want to break rapport. And, but in that book, he has an activity where you ask yourself 100 questions, stream of consciousness. And that was an awesome activity, because it really forces you goes into your subconscious mind, and you just start listing questions, and you notice themes around topics. And then you kind of narrow it down from 100 questions to several themes, and then you could pick one to deep dive on.

That makes sense. Yes. And at the same time, I think, you know, as a writer, I think, you know, I mean, in life, you know, people have ups and downs. And I know, like having like a long term thinking, and helps us, you know, and because small things, adding small things is to, you know, bigger things for eventually, but do you have some, you know, like a technique or, you know, mental model to, how to say manage your, like, ups and downs as a writer? Or, you know,

you mean the emotional part of the ups and downs? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Or do you have ups and downs, emotional, emotional ups and downs or not? I definitely have lots of emotional variants. But I don't know if I look at it, I don't track it in my head as ups and downs. I feel like during the writing process, you know, sometimes you get, you feel like you get bored on a topic after I've researched a lot, or there's not, there's lack of

clarity, or confusion, or, like, not sure fear of it, whether it's going to succeed or how it's going to come across. So I also feel like those difficulty emotions are often doorways to the most learning. And so if you're going something that's confusing, for example, that means you're stretching yourself, like your models, or how the world works, it's actually a good thing. So I think it's also framing it, how it's framed as well. I see.

Going back to the previous question, but so how do you choose the idea to write the next? So because there are a lot of ideas to write on, you're researching many ideas, right? But how do you choose the one? The most simple is I try to find the most interesting one to me. And it gets hard in the sense that often what's interesting is novel, something I don't already know. But it's, it's, I can know it. It's not like I have to research it for 1000s of hours. So it's this ripe zone.

That's, and it gets harder, because in some ways, the more you learn, then it gets harder to do more novelty versus like somebody who's just born, like everything is novel. And so you actually need more and more skill to find novelty. And so I think that is part of the fun as well as like, can I find something as I get older, as I get turn 30, turn 40, turn 50, like not feel like, okay, I figured everything out.

But like, how do I look for the things that will blow my mind? And, but at the same time, I'm not completely writing about everything. I'm also thinking about what's going to resonate really well, what is in a topic of my newsletter, I purposely chose a very broad topic, which is thought leadership. I think within thought leadership is learning, following your curiosity, self expression, the things that I've been most passionate about for the longest can fit inside of that container. Interesting.

Yeah, following curiosity. So interesting. So also like you can know about it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I see. And so this is a maybe common question, but so people learn something new, or like, you know, productivity tips or mental models, but so applying it, you know, those techniques into real life is pretty difficult. So yeah, I learned this technique. So I'm probably today, but tomorrow, I forget it.

So yeah, is there any other ways or techniques or so that people can apply it to daily base? Yeah, well, you know, one that's widely known is the more you use an idea, the more you remember it. So I particularly like knowledge. I feel like it's underrated as a category that knowledge that will be true forever, that they're kind of like core that they're kind of like core mental models, and that you use often. And so that way, you're constantly using it.

It's different than just in case knowledge, where you're learning something that you may remain 10% chance of using in 10 years, then that kind of knowledge, you're less likely to remember. But there's a lot of things we do every day around prioritizing, following habits, learning, decision making, communicating with people, where there's just evergreen knowledge. And so there's people could spend years just on type of knowledge. And that knowledge is also really valuable because it lasts.

Because if you want to compound your knowledge, rather than your knowledge, it's hard to compound your knowledge, if all your knowledge is getting outdated. So if the main way of learning about something is reading industry news on it, that's outdated within a month, then over time, and you look back, okay, I, you've moved out of that company, you look back on the 10 years, you actually have a lot less knowledge than it might feel like it because you've been reading the

industry news every day, it feels like you have a lot of knowledge. So I love that evergreen knowledge is that you could start, you know, it's a different put you in a different world. And also, it's called Lindy Lindy effect, right? Like something. Yeah, it's Lindy knowledge. Yeah. But so do you like those quotes on mental models on a post it and put it on a desk? Or how do you so or you just remember, so I write and teach.

So that's I don't personally do well with systems that are like, good space repetition, where I need to look at an old card. I feel like if I'm just design my lifestyle such that as I learn ideas, I'm sharing them with other people like my voice messages. I'm the really important ideas to me that I'm deeply curious about. So my mind is trying to figure it out. I'm, I'm thinking about it in my sleep. And then I spend hours rewriting it, thinking about it, think about metaphors,

finding visuals, trying to think about examples, and metaphors, then that helps it go down. I like those kind of naturalistic approaches. There's so many things we do well automatically. Where sometimes we create all these time management systems and discipline systems, learning systems that are laborious to actually follow through in day to day. That if we focus, that doesn't have to be that way. And also, you know, I've been following you on grass, and thank you for sharing

interesting quotes and ideas. And I'm, you know, just as a user, I'm curious, you know, like, what do you use grass for, like, you know, capturing some ideas and highlights, but but I think you don't highlight and capture everything you run, right? And do you have some criteria? And that's a good question. I love that whenever I'm reading an article, it's always there. So I see it, the highlighter menu multiple times.

And sometimes, I feel like there's sometimes where it's like, okay, there's a quote, and I can put it in an article that I'm working on. So I might move it there. And therefore, I probably wouldn't glass bit. But my guess is, I find come across something really interesting that I want to remember. But I don't really have somewhere where it fits. Well, I'd say it's when I glass bit. And I also like that it's just natively there. So it's just really quick to do.

Thanks so much. I was always curious about your highlights and notes and the context, you know, behind it. But yeah, yeah, I'm so glad to know that. Yeah, thank you. In addition to that, so do you look back at your profile version glass? So how does it work? So you capture it, but so like, you automatically export it to Notion, for example, or? I should review it more often. But I feel like it feels good knowing it's there.

And then, if I need to be like, okay, I read this article, I feel like then I'll go back and I can find the exact quotes when I need them. When you need it. Yeah. And it's really impressive that you have more than around, you know, 700 followers on the top users. And, you know, I didn't realize that. Yeah, hope you know, we hope you know, people are learning from your quotes and your learning process. And yeah, thank you for that. And, yeah.

And so, you know, you said, you know, you're learning many topics, but do you, what are you currently, you know, interested in or following? You know, do you have any you know, do you have some certain topics you are learning today? I'm very interested in augmentation. Okay, better container word for it. You know, AI is obviously a huge shift that's going to be unfolding over decades.

And a lot of the focus on it is with automation of okay, what are the workflows that we could just give to AI? And I 100% see the power of that by doing, by improving your workflows, it allows you to really expand what you're doing, focus on the things you love. And I think there's also, but it's like one of those things. It's like, I feel like I should be more interested in, but I'm not. But I find what I am really interested in is, I think I've always just been really interested in human

potential. And what can we as humans do? And it just strikes me that, you know, as we gain tools, what we can do expands. And I love exploring that. How can AI impact how we, our intelligence, or our empathy, or our learning, or even kind of like awakening, spiritual spirituality terms. And I just find that there's not a lot of people thinking about it that way. So I feel like it's like, okay, maybe it's a hole I can fill.

Maybe it won't matter in the end, because we build artificial super intelligence that's like, way smarter than humanity combined. And for every minute of its time, it's like, yeah, our every minute of our time, it's like thousands of years and it's, it's time. I don't know what to do in that case, anyway. But I feel like this, something that no matter what, I'll benefit from on not just a business level, but just an experiential human level. And I'll be able to share that with others.

So in my newsletter, Blockbuster Blueprint, right now we're doing an augmented intelligence class for every week. We go, I share different prompts for how we can use AI to augment our intelligence. Have you, have you found any interesting prompts or interaction through that process so far? Or through figuring out? Yeah, definitely. I find it's often I built all these mental models of how learning works, let's say. And so I have a very fine understanding of step by step.

So it allows me to really think like, okay, we're looking for knowledge, how could we be better there? So the last session we did is breakthrough knowledge. We've all had the experience of reading a book that changed our life, having a conversation that changed our life. So there's knowledge out there. It's like a needle in the haystack that right now, it's ripe for us, that would just if we read it, it would actually really transform our lives.

But it's pretty hard to find that. It's like, because most of the time we go through bestseller list or recommendations from friends or book lists, which can be helpful, but breakthrough knowledge also customized to where we are in life. And so that's one of the most recent bots that I've been exploring, that we have stuff for and just introduces novelty of books that you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. That's very interesting.

And do you use also, you know, I'm curious, you know, do you use AI, like Chattopadhyay or Anthropic, you know, to other, like a use case, you know, in your workflow or with your class? Yeah, yeah. I try to use it as much as I can. So, yeah. I see. Thank you. And I try to, part of, yeah, I'm just even exploring, like, what are the most helpful things that it can do and just practicing, interacting with it, asking prompts, things like that. I see.

So, I think, you know, our audience, you know, aspiring writers and thought readers and entrepreneurs. So, I think they are seeking knowledge, you know, want to know how to learn, how to learn and so on, and to become like you. And do you have some advice to them where to begin? What, you know, kind of mentor model or ideas to have in mind, you know? Yeah. I would say I can only share from my experience. So, it's not going to be necessarily helpful for other people. But I'm 42 now.

And I think when I was in my 20s, I was in super achiever mode. Like, I kind of build a billion dollar business, impact a billion people, and very, very goal focused. And there is, I think, a lot of benefits to that stage of my life. And it was also incredibly restrictive in ways I couldn't really understand at the time. And so, a really great book changed my life, I would say. It was Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned by two AI researchers.

And it's just thinking about how deep to go, but realizing that there is a paradigm beyond goal setting, I feel like has drastically increased the quality of my life. And I think also led to more success and reach. I see. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the advice. Yeah. And also Grasp is a platform where people can leave what they're reading, you know, learning as a digital legacy, and kind of, you know, like people accumulating, you know, people's digital legacy and knowledge.

And what kind of, I'm curious, you know, as a writer and entrepreneur, what kind of legacy or impact do you want to leave behind for the future generations? Actually, before I answer that, I just want to close the loop. I feel like I kind of mentioned the book. So just to communicate the ideas more clearly. Well, one, I think goal setting has its place, but a lot of times we don't realize the downsides of it. It just sounds so obvious that goal setting would just be a positive.

But when let's say we set a five-year goal to do something and we say, okay, to chomp us out five-year goal, I need to set like a two-year goal. I just need to set at least a five-year goal and then a one-year goal that leads to that. And then like three months, a quarterly goal, today's task. And then basically you want to add accountability on whatever the key tasks are that lead to the quarterly goal and so on. And things that are outside of that are typically viewed as distractions.

And you measure your progress by like, am I moving closer to this five-year goal? Does this task have me move closer or not? And is it the best path to move in closer? And what they talk about in the book is this goal setting can work really well in a context where you know all the steps to your goal and you just need to follow them. But a lot of areas of entrepreneurship or even creativity, innovation, we have this big goal, we actually don't know the

steps. And sometimes the most direct path isn't the best path. So let's say you want to become a million dollars. If you just take the highest paying job, that's at each step, that's probably not the best path. Maybe you want to do a, maybe it's better to do this free internship with someone where you're going to gain all this knowledge, skills, that will help you more. Or let's say you're in high school, choosing the highest paying, close to minimum wage job,

it may not be the best use of time compared to, I don't know, just learning more, something like that. But you could really expand this to so many different areas. So that's number one. And then I would say number two is anytime you focus on one thing deeply, deeply, you don't focus on lots of other things. And life in every moment, like in this moment, there's like multiple parts of each of us, like part of us are feeling

different ways, stuff we're saying, we're not saying. There's a context of this moment. There's right now we're in a podcast interview, but we've talked before and we could be, who knows, there could be a collaboration down the line or I'm visiting, you guys are in San Francisco? Yes. Yeah. So maybe next time I'm visiting San Francisco, we catch up, Lisa something. So it's hard to know where anything goes.

And also there's these moments that come up where they're like kind of learning opportunities during the day of like something didn't sit with us well emotionally. And sometimes there could be an urge to, okay, I'm not going to deal with that because I don't want to do my to-do list. I need to get through my to-do list or a relationship where it's like, okay, I'm not going to value this because it's not related to the media goal.

And it strikes me that life is really complex. There's all these variables that we want to optimize over time. And some of it's intuitive, like it just happens automatically. And when we just set like this one goal, we do increase our chances of getting there, but we miss these moments of serendipity or these learning opportunities that maybe in this moment don't seem that important, but maybe the lesson you would have learned would have actually been really helpful in other,

maybe your marriage or children, you just don't know, or conflict resolution. So there's that. And also who we are is constantly changing. How old are you guys again? Oh, I'm 32 now. 32. I'm 30. Okay, 30. So it's hard to understand or predict how much we will change in the future at a fundamental level, not just, okay, not just, I'm going to like the color blue or something, but fundamentally our values, our curiosities evolve,

our beliefs about the world. And there's something called the end of history illusion from Daniel Gilbert, that they surveyed people about how much they think they're going to change and how much they actually change. And people drastically underestimate how much they actually underestimate how much they're going to change. And therefore, when we're setting goals, we're kind of saying, Hey, this is important to me now. And it's going to be important.

And I want it to be important to me in five years and 10 years for my future self. And I don't know if you've ever had this, but I've had this where it's like, I set a goal in the past. It's really big goal. And my future self almost feels constrained by it, or even like a failure. I don't live up to the past goals. And so it creates, so we keep on focusing on the goal rather than this part of ourself that's emerging,

that's fresh about new interest and curiosities, things we want to do, people we want to connect with, but because it's not related to the goal, we shut down some of our own personal growth and evolve more slowly in life. And so it's a pretty large cost. So those are some reasons why I think the goal paradigm is powerful, but it's often overused and has consequences that people don't realize. I totally resonate with that. And yeah, I agree with that. Thank you.

And yeah, thank you for all the advice and insights, sharing your experience with us. And we learned a lot and yeah. And also, how can I, so you run Monster Master and Metal Model Club, how can we, how can, if our audience are interested in your course and newsletter, how can we, how can they follow you? Well, just to go real back real quick to Kay's question about legacy, I feel, I feel, I'm kind of answering questions off the seat of the moment.

And once it's coming, coming up for me, I might disagree with myself tomorrow, but I feel like we're forming legacy in every second in ways that we'll never really see or understand. So I feel like there is a legacy of having one accomplishment that stands, but also companies come and go pretty rapidly and more and more rapidly. I feel like kids, you know, that if you have kids, then they survive, they have kids.

Like that's probably the easiest way that everyone has a huge impact on the future because it goes throughout time into the future for, you know, however long humans are alive and they have kids. And so there's those big ways or the knowledge, if I have knowledge that can last 50 years, that can be it. But I also feel like we just have so much, we are constantly having impact on everything that we interact with. And it's easy to underestimate that because it's so small and small moment to moment, and we can't see it.

So I feel like focusing on as we evolve and we show up differently in the world that automatically creates changes as well. And to answer your question about best places, I have a newsletter called Blockbuster Blueprint, where I share more on if you're interested in doing thought leadership in a way where you're constantly learning and it's a process that sparks your curiosity, but also can build a significant business. And you'll enjoy that newsletter.

And I also recently started something called Substack Campfire. If you're interested in Substack, then it's a great place as well. We do 30 day note writing challenges to practice getting in the habit of consistently sharing your personal story through Substack. Thank you. Yeah. And yeah, before I end this, I did read up the quotes you shared with us and sharing your knowledge, share your knowledge, it's a way to achieve immortality.

And yeah, what you talk reminded me of that. And yeah, thank you so much for joining today. Yeah. Thank you guys. I really appreciate your guys' energy, all the conversations that we had over the years, and congratulations on your success. And I think both of you are incredibly genuine people, and that really comes across in all your interactions and look forward to more conversations in the future. Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you guys.

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